[nullve]

An idea I got while thinking about something useful to say in this thread:

If

1♣ = like a strong 1♣ or Precison 2♦ opening,

then it should be possible to fake a normal strong 1♣ structure after that. E.g.

1♣-?:

1♦ = "0-7" (=> 1♥+ = "19+, relay"; 1♠+ must somehow include the Precision 2♦ type hands. Ideas?)
1♥ = "8+, 5+ S / 14+ BAL" (=> 1♠ = 16+, relay; 2♣ = "Precision 2♦ opening")
1♠ = "8+, 5+ H" (=> 1N = 16+, relay, 2♣ = "Precision 2♦ opening")
1N = 8-13 BAL (=> 2♣ = 16+, relay; 2♦ = "Precision 2♦ opening")
2♣ = "8+, 5+ D" (=> 2♦ = 16+, relay; 2♥ = "Precision 2♦ opening")
2♦ = "8+, 5+ C" (=> 2♥ = 16+, relay; 2♠ = "Precision 2♦ opening" )
2♥ = "8-+, 5m4Om" (=> 2♠ = 16+, relay; 2N = "MAX Precision 2♦ opening"; 3♣ = "MIN Precision 2♦ opening")
(...),

which uses the same responses and allows the same relay structure as (one version of) Viking Club. (Unusual positives have to be bid somewhat differently, though.)

I'm sure others have had this idea before and scrapped it.

Thoughts?

[steve2005]

Never seen this idea.
Is not 15+ strong and forcing so if your restricted by ACBL GCC you can't use Viking responses.
This looks all straight-forward with no interference and I have no idea if it is good.
If there is competition and expect it, you will have all sorts of problems.

[mikestar13]

(inadvertent double post deleted)

[mikestar13]

Not a good idea. Full Polish Club methods (1♣=clubs, balanced, or strong) are much better. If you give up 1♣ always strong, weaker hands need to be more frequent than this.

[phoenix214]

If you add this shape to 1C, you will probably need to add some more shapes in order to play a mixed club, do not think adding that opening and keeping it strong makes much sense.
Id rather then screw up my 1D opening, or other, by the way.

[nullve]

steve2005, on 2017-June-26, 10:14, said:

Is not 15+ strong and forcing so if your restricted by ACBL GCC you can't use Viking responses.

Seems like I've come up with a non-GCC compatible solution to a problem mostly felt by players who are restricted by the GCC. In Europe, 2♦ (or 2♥) as "4415 minus 1 card" might be as uncommon among Precision players as Flannery is among 2/1 players.

mikestar13, on 2017-June-26, 11:04, said:

If you give up 1♣ always strong, weaker hands need to be more frequent than this.

phoenix214, on 2017-June-26, 11:43, said:

If you add this shape to 1C, you will probably need to add some more shapes in order to play a mixed club, do not think adding that opening and keeping it strong makes much sense.
Id rather then screw up my 1D opening, or other, by the way.

I had almost forgotten about this thread, where my 1♣ opening is like a Precision 1♣, 2♣ and 2♦ opening in one, but with similar continuations to what I've outlined above.

[Kungsgeten]

Fredin-Lindkvist included this hand type in their Swedish Club. Their 1C opening was:

a) 17+ any, except 25+ NT.
b) 11-13 NT without 5M.
c) 11-16 with "4415 minus one"

Convention card and a lot of details here: http://info.ecatsbri...kvist+notes.pdf

[nullve]

Kungsgeten, on 2017-June-26, 17:19, said:

Convention card and a lot of details here: http://info.ecatsbri...kvist+notes.pdf

Fantastic CC!

Interestingly, they used 1N as a GF relay over 1♣-1♠(8+, 4+ H), forcing Opener to rebid at the 2-level with 11-13 BAL and no fit.

[benlessard]

1C--1S is 4+♥ (probably denies 4♠ unless GF) 8pts+ but unbalanced so if there is no H fit they probably scramble in responder 2nd suit (always a minor I guess) .

[Kungsgeten]

benlessard, on 2017-June-27, 00:44, said:

1C--1S is 4+♥ (probably denies 4♠ unless GF) 8pts+ but unbalanced so if there is no H fit they probably scramble in responder 2nd suit (always a minor I guess) .

Yes, see note 25B on their CC. Non-strong opener bids:

2C = No fit.
2D = Max with 3 or 4 hearts.
2H = Min with 4 hearts.
3C = Three-suited 14-16 with 3 hearts.
3D = Three-suited 14-16 with 4 hearts.

I guess that over opener's 2C rebid responder can pass, bid 2D or 2H to play (5+ suit). It seems a bit high to start INV+ sequences with 2S, but its probably okay.

[phoenix214]

+1 To Fredin-Lindquist cc although
Have played a similar set, that is somewhat workable

[nullve]

benlessard, on 2017-June-27, 00:44, said:

1C--1S is 4+♥ (probably denies 4♠ unless GF) 8pts+ but unbalanced

I missed that.

[nullve]

Here's a related system I began to think about when working on my latest reply in the Balminnoch thread.

Opening structure:

(...)
1♣ = "10-15"*, either 5S6+C, 4S5+C, 4414 or "4154 minus 1 card" / "16+ unBAL / "17+ BAL"
1♦ = "11-13 BAL" / "10-15"*, either 6+ D, 5D5C, 4H5D, 4441 or "1445 minus 1 card"
1M = "10-15, 5+ M"
1N = "14-16 BAL"
2♣ = "10-15, 3-S6+C"
(...)

* maybe 11-16 instead of 10-15 if (4441)

The idea is to get a "Precision" 1♦ opening that is easier to handle without messing up the 1♣ opening too much.

1♣-?:

1♦ = 0-7, most (all?) hands / "8+, 4+ H"
1♥ = "8+, 4+ S"
Not sure what to do with all the remaining space yet, so for now:
1♠ = "8+, no major"
1N = "0-3", wants to stop in 1N opposite 20-22 BAL*

* not possible after 1♣-1♦; 1♥-1♠; 1N(F)

1♣-1♦; ?:

1♥ = "16+, relay"
1♠ = "10-15, either 4+S2-H or 31(54)"
1N = "17-19 BAL"
2♣ = "10-15, 4315 (=> 2♦ = INV+ relay)
2♦ = "13-15", 4 H (rest "415 minus 1 card")
2♥ = "10-12", 4 H (rest "415 minus 1 card")
(...)

1♣-1♥; ?:

1♠ = "16+, relay"
1N = "10-15, either 4+S2-H or 31(54)"
...2♣ = GF relay
2♣ = "10-15, 3415 (=> 2♦ = INV+ relay)
2♦ = "13-15", 4 S, rest "415 minus 1 card"
2♥ = "10-12", 4 S, rest "415 minus 1 card"
(...)

(Notice that Opener rebids much the same way over 1♦ ("hearts or negative") as over 1♥ ("spades")!)

1♣-1♠; ?:

1N = 16+, relay
2♣ = "10-12, 4415 minus 1 card"
2♦ = "10-12, 41(54) minus 1 card"
2♥ = "13-15", 4415 minus 1 card
2♠ = "13-15, 41(54) minus 1 card"
(...)

Relay structure, with TOSR-style continuations wherever that makes sense:

1♣-1♦; 1♥-?:

1♠ = 0-7
...1N = "19+, unBAL" / "20+ BAL". F1.
...2♣+ = "16-18, NT defence" (e.g. Astpro)
Else:
1N = H+C 2-suiter or H+C+D 3-suiter or 45(40) or 44(41)*
...2♣ = relay
......2♦ = 3-suiter. Continuations as under 3-suiters below.
......2♥+ = H+C 2-suiter
2♣ = H+D 2-suiter
2♦ = BAL: 3433 or 4H(432)
2♥ = S+H reverser
2♠+ = H 1-suiter

1♣-1♥; 1♠-?:

1N = S+C 2-suiter or S+C+D 3-suiter or 54(40) or 44(50)*.
...2♣ = relay
......2♦ = 3-suiter. Continuations as under 3-suiters below.
......2♥+ = S+C 2-suiter
2♣ = S+D 2-suiter
2♦ = S+H non-reverser
2♥ = BAL: 4333 or 4S4m(32)
2♠+ = S 1-suiter

* So 44(41)/(50) shapes are split evenly between 1♣-1♦; 1♥-1N; 2♣-2♦ and 1♣-1♥; 1♠-1N; 2♣-2♦.

1♣-1♠; 1N-?:

2♣ = D+C 2-suiter
2♦ = C 1-suiter
2♥ = BAL: 4m333 or (32)44
2♠+ = D 1-suiter


3-suiters

I haven't put much thought into this, but maybe something like

1♣-1♦; 1♥-1N; 2♣-2♦; 2♥-?:

2♠ = SPL S
...2N
......3♣ = 0445
......3♦ = 0454
......3♥+ = 0544, zoom
2N = SPL D
...3♣ = relay
......3♦ = 4414
......3♥+ = 4504, zoom
3♣ = 1444
3♦+ = SPL C
Specifically:
3♦ = 4441
3♥+ = 4540, zoom

and, similarly,

1♣-1♥; 1♠-1N; 2♣-2♦; 2♥-?:

2♠ = SPL H
...2N
......3♣ = 4045
......3♦ = 4054
......3♥+ = 5044, zoom
2N = SPL D
...3♣ = relay
......3♦ = 4405
......3♥+ = 4504, zoom
3♣ = 4144
3♦+ = SPL C
Specifically:
3♦ = 4450
3♥+ = 4540, zoom

?


Balanced structure, further details

1♣-1♦; 1♥-2♦; 2♥(relay)-?:

I'm unable to steal everything from TOSR here, so maybe

2♠ = 4 S
...2N = relay
......3♣ = 4423
......3♦+ = 4432, zoom
2N = 4 C
...3♣ = relay
......3♦ = 2434
......3♥+ = 3424, zoom
3♣ = 3433
3♦+ = 4 D
Specifically:
3♦ = 2443
3♥+ = 3442, zoom

and, similarly,

1♣-1♥; 1♠-2♥; 2♠(relay)-?:

2N = 4 C
...3♣ = relay
......3♦ = 4234
......3♥+ = 4324, zoom
3♣ = 4333
3♦+ = 4 D
Specifically:
3♦ = 4243
3♥+ = 4342, zoom

?

This post has been edited by nullve: 2017-July-23, 05:59