[m1cha]

nekthen, on 2017-June-02, 04:39, said:

N cannot have more than 2♠, if 3♥ can be bid on 4♥ he probably has 4♥ but how does he bid

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He does not want to bid 3N, so chooses 4♥. The last thing he wants to hear is 4N!

Yes. But should one respond 1NT to 1♠ with this hand? K&R says this hand is worth 2.80 points.
Having bid 1NT and got the 3♥ rebid, I'd dive trying to decide between
- pass (knowing that some of my partners would get angry since 3♥ should be GF)
- 3NT (Do I really need a better ♦ stop? Partner's Qx will do. And if not, that's the price for bidding 1NT and then failing to pass with a misfit.)
- 4♥ hoping for 5 cards with partner although 5-5 is much less likely than 5-4 and a Moysian may not play well here. I don't think I'd give this much more chance than 3NT.
If I bid 4♥ and partner bids 4NT, my fault. If partner bids 4NT because I dived, his fault .
If partner raises to 4NT, opps call the TD and have 4NT corrected to pass while 4♥ just makes or is down 1, not my problem .

[miamijd]

m1cha, on 2017-June-02, 10:49, said:

Yes. But should one respond 1NT to 1♠ with this hand? K&R says this hand is worth 2.80 points.
Having bid 1NT and got the 3♥ rebid, I'd dive trying to decide between
- pass (knowing that some of my partners would get angry since 3♥ should be GF)
- 3NT (Do I really need a better ♦ stop? Partner's Qx will do. And if not, that's the price for bidding 1NT and then failing to pass with a misfit.)
- 4♥ hoping for 5 cards with partner although 5-5 is much less likely than 5-4 and a Moysian may not play well here. I don't think I'd give this much more chance than 3NT.
If I bid 4♥ and partner bids 4NT, my fault. If partner bids 4NT because I dived, his fault .
If partner raises to 4NT, opps call the TD and have 4NT corrected to pass while 4♥ just makes or is down 1, not my problem .

You probably should pass this hand and not respond 1nt forcing, but that wasn't the poster's (nekthen?) point. Make the clubs QJxxx, and no one would seriously consider passing, yet not only do you not want to be in slam, you don't even want to be in 5H, which could easily fail.

[Vampyr]

nekthen, on 2017-June-02, 04:39, said:

N cannot have more than 2♠, if 3♥ can be bid on 4♥ he probably has 4♥ but how does he bid

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He does not want to bid 3N, so chooses 4♥. The last thing he wants to hear is 4N!

Would be respond 1NT with this hand?

[m1cha]

miamijd, on 2017-June-02, 13:48, said:

You probably should pass this hand and not respond 1nt forcing, but that wasn't the poster's (nekthen?) point. Make the clubs QJxxx, and no one would seriously consider passing, yet not only do you not want to be in slam, you don't even want to be in 5H, which could easily fail.

Yes, and I accept this. There are always hands that don't meet the expectations and others that surpass them. For example, I just opened a bidding table with GIB robots, bid 1♠ and 3♥ from South and got a 1NT response and 4♥ rebid from North with this hand:
♠ J6
♥ QJ952
♦ A75
♣ A65
Take away a jack or two and you still have a grand slam opposite the original South hand. I mean, we have come to a point where we're doing guesswork because we don't know what a bid of 4♣ means and what 4♥ shows or denies in their system.

[relknes]

I will probably be in the minority here, but I am of the opinion that the hand should be opened 2♣, especially if you are going to go looking for slam when partner keeps giving minimum responses.
The hand has 3 losers. Game is laydown opposite a lot of hands where partner would pass your 1♠ bid.
After 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♠ - (something) - 3♥, partner is much better able to judge the strength of this hand, and there is no temptation to push on if they sign off. As the bidding went, I would say it looks like a case of underbidding the hand with the first call and trying to make up for it by overbidding the hand later on... but again, I am probably in the minority.

[barmar]

The problem with opening it 2♣ is that you'll be on the 4 level by the time you've shown that you're 5-5.

2♣ 2♦
2♠ something
3♥ something
4♥ ?

Will partner know that he should keep bidding? If he bids something, is it natural or a cue bid in support of hearts?

[dokoko]

imo there is no logical alternative to pass

[relknes]

barmar, on 2017-June-03, 12:10, said:

The problem with opening it 2♣ is that you'll be on the 4 level by the time you've shown that you're 5-5.

I guess that depends on whether 1♠ - 1N - 3♥ shows 5-5 or if it could be 5-4.
I was assuming that sequence showed at least 5-4 and enough strength to want to be in game opposite 6 random points.
Starting with 2♣ shows the same shape, but with enough strength to want to be in game opposite hands that would pass 1♠.
Either way, you've shown 5-4 at the 3 level and would have to show 5-5 at the 4 level...
Now, if the original sequence shows 5-5, that's a different story, but then I have to wonder how to show a 5-4 hand at the very upper range of the 1♠ opening. Bid NT with 5-4-2-2? Jump in a 3 card minor with 5-4-3-1? Probably workable, but you better make sure partner is expecting it, and that you have mechanisms for finding a 4-4 heart fit afterwards.
As always, what your agreements are matters more than anything else.