[ewj]

Hi
Do any players here have a nice system over 2NT opener showing 20-22 balanced?

[Chamaco]

Hi :-)
if you check out the FAQ thread:
http://forums.bridge...?showtopic=5612

you will find a lot of useful links to previous threads.

Among other stuff, look for "2NT opening", you'll find 2 links to threads on responding to the 2NT opener

[inquiry]

If you want a series of progressively interesting options, take a look at:

ETM victory over 2NT

This starts out with easy version, then in middle switches to intermediate version, and then at the end goes to the super scientific complex version. You can adopt it piece meal, improving it in steps if you like.

Ben

[Fluffy]

There is no good system after a 2NT opening, 2NT opening is the worst of natural systems.

[daswallow]

If you do not like a 2NT opening showing 20-22 balanced, that does not mean there is no good system to play after opening it! These are separate issues.
I just play a fairly simple puppet+smolen system which works ok most of the time.

[keylime]

I like the structure Jack the program uses as a baseline.

[luke warm]

which is what? i play regular ole puppet

[Chamaco]

daswallow, on Apr 20 2005, 04:25 PM, said:

If you do not like a 2NT opening showing 20-22 balanced, that does not mean there is no good system to play after opening it!  These are separate issues.
I just play a fairly simple puppet+smolen system which works ok most of the time.

It seems to me that most panaceas for developments over strong 2NT are decently suited for SMALL SLAM investigations:
bidding a small slam allows for some indetermination, bidding a grand requires much more certainty, and often the limited amount of space does not allow an investigation scientific enough to bid a grand confidently.

This is especially true, IMO, for slams in the minor, for which there is less room to investigate.

Now, it seems to me that this problem is not huge at MATCHPOINTS, for many reasons:
- at MP, you do not care of the amount of swings, but the frequency matters. These borderline small/grand slams are rare enough to ignore them at MP;

- even when these Grand or small slams are there, most pairs playing strong 2NT opener will also have trouble bidding, so it is not a disaster.

BUT, at Teams, it's totally different: being able to bid a rare Grand slam in a minor, when opps may settle for 3NT may win the match by itself.
Moreover, at Teams, you play vs better players, who usually have good methods, and you'll find more ops being able to bid those slams rather than in a MP pairs event (even a good one)

[han]

I know lot's have been written in other threads, but I'm going to write down what I play with a regular partner. New to me is 4C as a transfer, does anybody play this?

3C: puppet stayman.
-> 3D: one or both 4-card majors (3M shows other major, 3NT is to play, 4C is natural and forcing, 4D shows both majors).
-> 3H: 5 hearts (3S is a slam try in hearts, 3NT is to play, 4C is natural and forcing, 4D is natural and forcing and implies 4+ spades, 4H is to play, 4S, 5C, 5D are exclusion RKC, 4NT is quant.)
-> 3S: 5 spades (similar follow ups, 4H is slam try in spades).
-> 3NT: no four-card major (4C, 4D natural, forcing, 4NT quant.)

3D: transfer to hearts. Opener will usually bid 3H (but may superaccept) and then:
-> 3S, 4C, 4D: natural 2-suiter.
-> 3NT choice of games.
-> 4H: mild slam interest.
-> 4S, 5C, 5D: exclusion RKC.
-> 4NT quant. with 5 hearts.

3H: transfer to spades. Follow ups as over 3D (4H would show 5-5 in the majors).

3S: shows both minors, at least 5-4. Opener bids 3NT without great interest in a minor suit slam. Then:
-> 4C: Usually 2-2-4-5, serious slam interest (4NT is to play, 4D sets trump, 4H 4S is slam try in clubs)
-> 4D: Usually 2-2-5-4, serious slam interest.
-> 4H: Typically 2-1-5-5, serious slam interest.
-> 4S: Typically 1-2-5-5, serious slam interest.

3NT: to play.

4C: transfer to diamonds (then 4H, 4S, 5C are cheapest controls, 4NT is RKC, 5D is mild slam interest)

4D: transfer to hearts (then 4S, 5C, 5D= void, slam try, not exclusion, 4NT = RKC.)

4H: transfer to spades.

4S: not used.

4NT: quant. (opener may accept by bidding 4-card suit at 5-level or 5-card suit at 6-level)

5C, 5D: to play.

Note that I have decided not to worry about hands with 5 spades and 4 hearts.

[han]

Quote

At teams you play against better players

I don't agree with this!

[luke warm]

i think most people would agree with mauro that usually at teams the caliber of player is higher... there are exceptions, of course (blue ribbon pairs for example)...

[awm]

I don't think the quality of entrants into team events is necessarily higher than in pairs. However, most team events try to match good teams against good teams. Usually the format is either knockout (so the good players survive and weaker ones tend to leave) or swiss. So as you do better and better you start playing exclusively against the good players. In pairs, even in a multi-day event, you typically still end up with about 1/3 to 1/4 of the field left on the third day. So you're still not in a field with only the very best (compare this to the semi-finals of a top quality team events, you will find the average caliber of players remaining is different).

[beatrix45]

Hannie, on Apr 21 2005, 07:48 AM, said:

Quote

At teams you play against better players

I don't agree with this!

The seeding procedure starts in the first round by pitting the team with the least masterpoints against the one with the most. In flight A, for example, my friends and I from my Thursday morning rubber bridge game once started against Mike Passel and Eddie Wold at one table and Malcolm B. and Bobby Wolff at the other. We won a moral victory of a sort.

You ought to try it if you can.

[pclayton]

When I have to play a strong 2N (which I don't in any of my partnerships by the way), I play:

3♣ = puppet

3♦ / 3♥ / 4♦ / 4♥ = transfers. Transfer and raise to 4 major is very mild slam suggestion.

3♠ = relay to 3N; then

---> pass - to play (if playing the 3N response structure below)
---> 4♣ / 4♦ = key card in the other minor
---> 4♥ / 4♠ = shortness and at least 5-4 in the minors
---> 4N - 5422 quantatative

With a partner that doesn't bid by reflex - play:

3N is a transfer to 4♣ - weak hand, long bad suit. Correction to 4♦ is weak. Corrections to 4♥ / 4♠ are strong slam invites.

4♣ is vanilla gerber.

4♠ is quantitative raise to 4N with 4-4 in the minors usually. This can be extended to be any 4 of a minor and 4 of a major too.

4N - quantitative 4333.

[helene_t]

Kleinman plays two-step Stayman. Responses to 3♣ are:
3♦: no 4-card hearts, at least 3 spades. Then you can look for a spades fit. Note that both partners may still have a 5-card spades.
3♥: 4+ hearts, no four spades.
3♠: 4-4 majors.
3NT: No four hearts, doubleton spades.

I'm not sure if this is better or simpler than Puppet Stayman. It does have the advantage that responder can bid 3NT immediately to play, thereby concealing declare's holding and avoiding lead-directing doubles on 3♣. But who fears a double on 3♣ if responder doesn't have a 4-card major?

[mikestar]

Let's look at all cases whwere responder might look for a major and analyze how the Kleinman structure handles them (I'm guessing at the follow ups):

1) 3 hearts, < 3 spades
....3D-3N
....3H-3S (asks for fifth heart)
....3S-3N
....3N-P

2) 4 hearts, < 3 spades
....3D-3N
....3H-4H
....3S-4D (transfer)
....3N-P

3) 3 spades, < 3 hearts
....3D-3H (asks spade length: perhaps 3S=4, 3N=3, higher=5 )
....3H-looks like we're stuck here
....3S-3N
....3N-P

4) 4 spades, <3 hearts
....3D-3H (asks spade length)
....3H-3N
....3S-4S
....3N-P

5) 3-3 majors
....3D-3H (asks spade length)
....3H-3S (asks for fifth heart)
....3S-3N
....3N-P

6) 4-4 majors
....3D-3H (asks spade length)
....3H-4H
....3S-4S (or 4H or transfer to hearts or pick a major?)
....3N-pass

7) 4 hearts, 3 spades
....3D-3H (asks spade length)
....3H-4H
....3S-4D (transfer)
....3N-P

8) 4 spades, 3 hearts
....3D-3H (asks spade length, we lose 5-3 hearts, or 3S asks for third heart, we lose 4-4 or 5-4 spade fit)
....3H-3S (asks for fifth heart)
....3S-4S
....3N-P


9) 5 spades, 3 hearts
....3D-4H (transfer)
....3H-3S (asks fifth heart, we lose 5-3 spade fit)
....3S-4S
....3N-P

10) 5 hearts, 3 spades
....3D-3H (asks spade length or 3S asks for third heart, either way we lose the other 5-3 fit)
....3H-4H
....3S-4D (transfer)
....3N-4D (transfer--if we don't open 2N on 2-2 majors)

11) 5 spades, 4 hearts
....3D-4H (transfer)
....3H-4H
....3S-4D (transfer or 4S)
....3N-P


No listing for 5-5 majors, 5 in none major and doubleton in the other, or 5 hearts and 4 spades--these can all be handled thru Jacoby. Some of the other holes can be filled in by Jacoby if you are willing to give up the abilitty to play in 3M.

All in all, not that many holes, but puppet stayman doesn't have too many and Romex stayman is better tahn puppet. Probably stacks up about the same as Romex.