[Phil]

gnasher, on 2017-April-03, 16:36, said:

When did I say that?

I'm not denying having said it; I just don't remember doing so. But if I did say it I'd quite like to remind myself of what arguments I advanced

I'd have to dig, but your argument was "why do we want to play precisely 1M here, when we have a large subset of different hand types to show if 1M is forcing". I also presume that your 1N rebid is lighter than mine.

[benlessard]

I strongly like a 1M rebid not forcing.

We play 1C as 15+

We had good results when it when

1C--1D (15+, 4H or pts)
1H--P.... opps are balancing and they get wacked since the pts are 20--4 on our side or they dont balance and they miss 3Nt. Its hard for them to compete correctly when H are 3-3.

The basic point IMO is that after

1C-1D-??

how often are you going to have more than 20 pts ? Note that some strong hand with 4H can jump to 2H, so in the end there is few hands that are too good for 1H/1S/1NT or 2H. We bid 2D or 2NT+ with those hand and they are fairly rare.

[Zelandakh]

benlessard, on 2017-April-05, 22:37, said:

The basic point IMO is that after

That is one basic point perhaps. A more basic one is the question of how often are we taking 6 or fewer tricks with hearts as our best denomination and are also able to recognise this in time. That is likely to be more often in a system with a lower range for Opener and Responder; where Opener is 15+ it is my contention that the utility you get from a forcing 1♥ is far in excess of the benefits of being able to stop in 1♥. Naturally YMMV.

[benlessard]

"A more basic one is the question of how often are we taking 6 or fewer tricks with hearts as our best denomination"

This is missing the point, you dont make profit because you play 1H rather than 2H you make profit because responder can pass when hes 0-5 and other bids show values. Focusing on responder option is more profitable than a focus on opener option because the HCP range and the type of hands is more varied for responder than opener. In my system where 1C is 15+ 50% of opener hands are going to be 15-16 pts, 30% are 17-18 and in general his hand is more balanced and less shapely. But responder HCP count is more spread out and same for his shape. This might not apply if 1C is often unbalanced but its not the case for OP system.


after

1C-1D-1H-?

pass = 0-5
1S = 6-8 no 4M unless 3433, or GF bal
1NT= 6-8 with 4 or 5S
2C= H+D GF or 6D inv
2D= H inv or H+C GF
2H= 6S inv or H+S GF
2S+ C+H GF

1C-1D
1H-1S
??

1NT= 15-16 not always bal
2C = 15-16 with 5C
rest is stronger hand or hands with 6M or 55 in both M.

But if 1H is forcing not always very strong you will endup in 2NT a fair amount of time.
1C-1D-1H-1S as 0-4 pts or some strong type is annoying since it mean bidding 2m with some 5-7 hands.

opener rebids as mostly NF and responder rebid as forcing is better than the opposite and its not close imo.