[silvr bull]

Playing normal weak two bids and a strong artificial 2C, partner opens 2C but the next opp bids something at the 2, or 3, or 4 level. What type of hand would you double with? If the game format (MPs, IMPS, etc.), or the vulnerabilities, or the bid level would change the meaning of your double, please expand the discussion.

[FelicityR]

My club partner and I have decided to keep this simple as opening 2♣ is rare, and interference over 2♣ is rarer.

Pass = equivalent of 2♦ bid - negative 0-6
Double = negative double - 7+ with tolerance for all suits (semi-balanced) except that overcalled
2NT = 8-10 with stop in opponents suit (balanced)
2♥ or 2♠ - 7+ with at least a 5 card suit
any bid at 3 level - 7+ with 6 card suit

I realise the modern method is to double with a virtually worthless hand to warn partner but we just prefer it this way.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

pass is forcing, with this, it was common to play X as penalty.
This makes still sense, if we are talking about high intervention

against low level intervention you are stilltrying to figure out, do
you only play game / or do you want to give slam a go, if you have a
slam, than the penalty out of 2?x may not be enough compensation
The second thing (or the first) to figure out is the strain, for this
T/O work better, i.e.I would go with T/O at lower level, and you may
keep this for simplicity reasons also, if dealing with high level
preempts.

If they intervene with 2NT, and opener makes a T/O, I would suggest to
play 2NT as Lebensohl.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[alok c]

Bad hand.

[Vampyr]

If your 2♣ bid can be 20-22 balanced, it is an interesting question whether you should keep your major-suit negative responses (if available). 2NT over a major-suit interference should be both minors. Against higher-level interference, it is more difficult with this type of 2♣ opening. I am not sure what is best.

[Lovera]

For me the meaning is that partner has ♣+♥ suits as explained in my topic "Defence against strong two club opening" in ECB (so in 2♣ - X). About reponse 2♣ - (2x) - X should be negatif hand with longness in suit of opp.(Lovera)

[GrahamJson]

I voted "Other" as it has more than one of the meanings given. It is basically an hand where you think penalising the opponents will result in a better score than bidding on. So is could be a poor hand or a good one, but it should have some defence, maybe just a few trumps, and not be useful in another strain.

There is one widely kib bed player on BBZo who make it a rule to always overcall over 2C. He gets away with it, and sometimes gets a good score, because oppo never double, largely because of this idea that all early doubles must be for take out.

[MRTRUB44]

When I started playing, a double of an interference bid basically meant that you would otherwise have bid what the opponent bid. That is 2 Clubs 2 Hearts double meant that the doubling player would have bid 2 hearts absent the opponent bid. Today I would basically mean a penalty double.

[Tramticket]

Our 2♣ is 100% forcing to game and double is penalties.

[PhilG007]

silvr bull, on 2017-March-22, 00:49, said:

Playing normal weak two bids and a strong artificial 2C, partner opens 2C but the next opp bids something at the 2, or 3, or 4 level. What type of hand would you double with? If the game format (MPs, IMPS, etc.), or the vulnerabilities, or the bid level would change the meaning of your double, please expand the discussion.

After partners's 2♣ opener,I would double any opposition bid for penalties if I
had the necessary requisites. However there is the danger of being gazumped out of a slam.
Suppose the bidding has gone 2♣ and next hand bids 4♠ and you hold this hand:-

---

With a probable 32-33 points there is almost a certain slam on but the rude pre-empt has robbed you
of valuable bidding space. The only chance is to bid 5♠ A high level cue bid and slam force. It sends the message
"I have first round control of their suit. I invite you to pick a slam in the other 3 suits" Of course it could also be
that a grand slam is lay down but that is the nature of the game. The opponents are there to obstruct you.

[Joe_Old]

There is no consensus.

In Goren, with strong 2's and therefore different logic, X = 0-3 points, pass = 4-6 points, other bids showed real suits or a stopper for NT. That system is still used by many as a default (if you haven't otherwise discussed).

Presently, the trend seems to be to X with a trump trick and 4-8 points, otherwise bid a positive NT with 9-11, bid a suit with a good, positive hand, cue bid with strength and pass with most hands that you would have bid 2 clubs-2 diamonds. (This is the system in the ABCL teaching manual the last time I looked).

There are other treatments, particularly for high level overcalls.

[GrahamJson]

PhilG007, on 2017-March-23, 08:34, said:

After partners's 2♣ opener,I would double any opposition bid for penalties if I
had the necessary requisites. However there is the danger of being gazumped out of a slam.
Suppose the bidding has gone 2♣ and next hand bids 4♠ and you hold this hand:-

---

With a probable 32-33 points there is almost a certain slam on but the rude pre-empt has robbed you
of valuable bidding space. The only chance is to bid 5♠ A high level cue bid and slam force. It sends the message
"I have first round control of their suit. I invite you to pick a slam in the other 3 suits" Of course it could also be
that a grand slam is lay down but that is the nature of the game. The opponents are there to obstruct you.

You could also pass and see what partner does. You'd probably still bid 5S next but it would have a different meaning. I think that an immediate 5S should show two suits whilst an initial pass shows three. Or perhaps they show different strengths. One to discuss with a regular partner.

[msjennifer]

OTHER

[miamijd]

FelicityR, on 2017-March-22, 05:04, said:

My club partner and I have decided to keep this simple as opening 2♣ is rare, and interference over 2♣ is rarer.

Pass = equivalent of 2♦ bid - negative 0-6
Double = negative double - 7+ with tolerance for all suits (semi-balanced) except that overcalled
2NT = 8-10 with stop in opponents suit (balanced)
2♥ or 2♠ - 7+ with at least a 5 card suit
any bid at 3 level - 7+ with 6 card suit

I realise the modern method is to double with a virtually worthless hand to warn partner but we just prefer it this way.

After a 2-level overcall (including 2NT), "standard expert" is that X is a double negative and pass is better than the double negative but with no clear bid. This treatment seems to work pretty well.

At some point, however, you probably want to shift and have X be penalty. Where the dividing line should be is something you need to agree upon with partner.

Cheers,
Mike

[mike777]

miamijd, on 2017-March-23, 13:58, said:

After a 2-level overcall (including 2NT), "standard expert" is that X is a double negative and pass is better than the double negative but with no clear bid. This treatment seems to work pretty well.

At some point, however, you probably want to shift and have X be penalty. Where the dividing line should be is something you need to agree upon with partner.

Cheers,
Mike

strongly agree with the above approach.

so I will just repeat, I assume 2c shows a big hand but is not 100% game force so:
x=very bad hand say no ace or king..

pass=game force hand, no clear direction....say at least one King.

any other bid=game force and natural....say at least one king.

[Joe_Old]

miamijd, on 2017-March-23, 13:58, said:

After a 2-level overcall (including 2NT), "standard expert" is that X is a double negative and pass is better than the double negative but with no clear bid. This treatment seems to work pretty well.

At some point, however, you probably want to shift and have X be penalty. Where the dividing line should be is something you need to agree upon with partner.

Cheers,
Mike

I agree that this is a standard treatment, but it is no longer "standard expert". As noted in my post above, now many writers advocate X to be penalty, with a weak (4-8 HCP) hand. For instance, Larry Cohen plays responses Mike's way, but Richard Pavlicek plays X as penalty. The ACBL teacher manual (not to be confused with expert play) goes along with Pavlicek.

At the NABC that just concluded I saw both styles in the premier events, so I'd have to say that you can't presume how a top expert plays that bid without asking. For what it's worth, I play it Mike's way unless partner wants something different.

[calabres]

In my system I play DOPI.

DBL = 0 or 2 Aces
PASS = 1 or 3 Aces