[Chamaco]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     2♥    Pass
 4♥    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

4H was off 2.

[flytoox]

Looks quite normal. The only bid I can think of is to balance 4S after 4H is passed to me. The reason we can balance 4S is that we have 3 small hearts and pd is expected to be short in hearts and hence expected to have spade support. But it is not without danger and 4H could make in another day.

[Chamaco]

flytoox, on Apr 18 2005, 09:40 AM, said:

Looks quite normal. The only bid I can think of is to balance 4S after 4H is passed to me. The reason we can balance 4S is that we have 3 small hearts and pd is expected to be short in hearts and hence expected to have spade support. But it is not without danger and 4H could make in another day.

Th 3 small hearts are a danger signal rather than an encouraging signal.

In fact. holding length in their suit, pard will be short so he has the right shape: so the question is "If he has the right shape, WHY DIDN'T HE BID ?".

The only answer can be: "Because he is not strong enough".

Here ok, North has the magic cards.

But the bidding would go the same if WEST had the black Aces and North had the red queens.

The point is, we do not know whether West is weak or strong for his raise, and length in opps suit tends to suggest hat North does not have the power for bidding.

I would be much more keen to bid as South if I were SHORT in opps suit:
in that case, I am allowed to hope for more stuff from pard, since he might have cards but not the right shape (in that case , *he* would be likely with xxx in opps suit and would not have a nice shape for t/o dbl)

BTW, I was North.

[hotShot]

If opps preempt, sometimes they get you.

It does not pay off to bid a preempt hand over a preempt, so south pass is ok.
North is not strong enough to dbl, or take any action now.

At imps you might agree with you partner to make some "light weight" dbl.
620/790 if they make it, may be worth the risk 200/500 for down 2.

[mcphee]

Seems to me that S should balance 4S, I would and I have gone for the odd digit and will again.

[flytoox]

Chamaco, on Apr 18 2005, 09:49 AM, said:

Th 3 small hearts are a danger signal rather than an encouraging signal.

Strongly disagree. North cannot dbl with less than good 15hcp, even though with 4441 shape. 4S is a two way bid, for make or for save.

As you said, 4H could be strong or weak. But from south's point-of-view, 4S should be right no matter 4H is strong or weak. He should not care about it. What he cares is if pd has support for 4S.

I still think south's decision is marginal. If south's diamond is singleton, then I think 4S is mandatory.

[mr1303]

No, I don't think either of you did anything wrong. North has nowhere near enough to come in at the 4 level vul with his hand, which is effectively a 10 count. If South had a 7th spade and some shape he might take insurance with a 4S bid, but with 6322 shape, a ratty suit and mostly defensive values it's suicide.

I'll let the odd one go when opponents pre-empt us.

[Fluffy]

Would pass as well, althou I could live with a balancing 4♠ also.

[luis]

I think North has to double 4♥ for takeout, he will be happy to hear pd go to 4♠ with a spade suit or to 5 of a minor too with a minor suit. He can also stand 4♥x when pd doesn't have a clear bid. -790 isn't a tragedy if they were scoring -620 but if your side has a game or maybe a cheap down 1 in spades then you will be guilty.
Why is North guilty and not south? Because North knows that pd will know he had a heart singleton so if he is not acting with a heart singleton south won't balance in 4th position.
I'd have doubled 4♥ as north and yes it's wrong in many hands and right in others don't post examples :-)

[pclayton]

4♠ by south, just like I'd bid 3♠ over a 3♥ raise. Very possibly -500 vs -420, big deal. Many ways to win, only one to lose.

♥Txx is a positive here.

[flytoox]

luis, on Apr 18 2005, 02:15 PM, said:

I think North has to double 4♥ for takeout, he will be happy to hear pd go to 4♠ with a spade suit or to 5 of a minor too with a minor suit. He can also stand 4♥x when pd doesn't have a clear bid. -790 isn't a tragedy if they were scoring -620 but if your side has a game or maybe a cheap down 1 in spades then you will be guilty.
Why is North guilty and not south? Because North knows that pd will know he had a heart singleton so if he is not acting with a heart singleton south won't balance in 4th position.
I'd have doubled 4♥ as north and yes it's wrong in many hands and right in others don't post examples :-)

If you double with north's hand, you are more likely to get -790 rather than +620 or +200.

[mikestar]

I would pass with South's hand but can appreciate 4S. Doubling with North's hand would never cross my mind. I might gamble a double if I had a small stiff in hearts, but the actual holding is deadly. KH is worthless on offense, but give the preemptor QJ and the Ace to his partner and North's stiff King wins a defensive trick. The chance of 4S being a phantom save makes double unacceptable to me--and from North's perpective, Sout'slength is nessessarily in spades--what are the chances of 5C being a phantom or too expensive?

[ehhh]

Seems to me there is a problem when one pre-emps a pre-emp as you are req'd to have hand of some specific strength. If not, is it not alertable according to the ACBL?

[Chamaco]

ehhh, on Apr 18 2005, 04:13 PM, said:

Seems to me there is a problem when one pre-emps a pre-emp as you are req'd to have hand of some specific strength. If not, is it not alertable according to the ACBL?

??

[Fluffy]

ehhh, on Apr 18 2005, 04:13 PM, said:

Seems to me there is a problem when one pre-emps a pre-emp as you are req'd to have hand of some specific strength. If not, is it not alertable according to the ACBL?

What is ACBL?, I am not very good with the modern conventions.

[slothy]

el floof espan(with tilde thingey)ol, on Apr 12, 12 BC, said:

What is ACBL?, I am not very good with the modern conventions.

A.C.B.L = Autocratic Confederation of Bridge Lunatics

Sorry Floofy thought everyone knew that!

Alejandro

And whilst i am on the subject of more appropriate acronyms

E.B.U. = Erroneously Biased Umpires

After a nameless English Bridge Union Qualified Tournament Director, Mr 'Uriah Heep' Bagman to the rest of us, black-balled our appeal after a well-known (ex international) bridge player convinced him it was ok to hesitate for 8 secs with a singleton

[pbleighton]

"What is ACBL?, I am not very good with the modern conventions."

Neither are they.

Peter

[junyi_zhu]

Chamaco, on Apr 18 2005, 08:48 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

- - 2♥ Pass
4♥ Pass Pass Pass


4H was off 2.

If one always bids 4S with south's hand over 4H, I'd bid 4H against him whenever I have some reasonable 16 HCP and doubleton in hearts or even stiff honor in hearts sometimes. Then he'll find how many times 4H would go down when 4S would cost him 500 or 800. So the bidding sequence is actually very reasonable. There is no such thing that you can't bid 2S over 2H then later, your hand is good enough to bid 4S over 4H when partner doesn't make a single bid.