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7 Spades MP

#1 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2017-February-19, 17:16



MP

This hand came when Csaba (Gwnn) and I played at a club. Opponents are flight A players. I was N and Csaba got to play this hand.

Lead: 2 and other opponent follows with 8.

How do you plan the play? (trumps are 3-1 if you cash them, W has 3 of them)
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#2 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-February-19, 20:29

View PostMrAce, on 2017-February-19, 17:16, said:


MP. This hand came when Csaba (Gwnn) and I played at a clun. Opponents are flight A players. I was N and Csaba got to play this hand.

Lead: 2 and other opponent follows with 8.
How do you plan the play? (trumps are 3-1 if you cash them, W has 3 of them)


You have 2 X s, 1 X s, and 2 X s = 5 top winners in the plain suits.
tricks. You need 8 more. Perhaps
  • 5 X s, 2 X ruffs, and a long .
  • 4 X s, 3 X red ruffs, and a long .
  • 4 X s, 3 X ruffs, and the finesse.

Hence my guess is:
  • Win A (both defenders follow). Ruff a , Cash AK discarding 2 s, Ruff or over-ruff a . If s are 4-3, then cross to Q (RHO shows out), Ruff a with K, Ruff a , Draw trumps, Cash winners, Cross to A, and Cash winners.
  • If are 5-2, then Cash AK, discarding a and a . If QT appear, then cross to A, Ruff Q, Draw trumps, and Cash J9.
  • If QT don't appear then Ruff (or Ruff-finesse) a second . If J is good, then cross to A, Ruff Q, Draw trumps, and Cash J.
  • If J isn't good, then Ruff it, Finesse Q, Draw trumps, and Cash A.

This line fails when RHO can over-ruff the 3rd round of s but caters well for other possibilities.
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#3 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2017-February-19, 23:58

View Postnige1, on 2017-February-19, 20:29, said:

You have 2 X s, 1 X s, and 2 X s = 5 top winners in the plain suits.
tricks. You need 8 more. Perhaps
  • 5 X s, 2 X ruffs, and a long .
  • 4 X s, 3 X red ruffs, and a long .
  • 4 X s, 3 X ruffs, and the finesse.

Hence my guess is:
  • Win A (both defenders follow). Ruff a , Cash AK discarding 2 s, Ruff or over-ruff a . If s are 4-3, then cross to Q (RHO shows out), Ruff a with K, Ruff a , Draw trumps, Cash winners, Cross to A, and Cash winners.
  • If are 5-2, then Cash AK, discarding a and a . If QT appear, then cross to A, Ruff Q, Draw trumps, and Cash J9.
  • If QT don't appear then Ruff (or Ruff-finesse) a second . If J is good, then cross to A, Ruff Q, Draw trumps, and Cash J.
  • If J isn't good, then Ruff it, Finesse Q, Draw trumps, and Cash A.

This line fails when RHO can over-ruff the 3rd round of s but caters well for other possibilities.


Think a bit more. You have much better line if you think your 3 rounds of and 3 rounds of will survive, as you relied on in your line.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#4 User is offline   alok c 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 00:47

1)J
2&3) AK-discarding 1 & 1
4) ruff
5&6) AK -discarding 2
7) ruff
8)A
9) ruff
10) ruff
11) ruff
12&13) & ruffs.
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#5 User is offline   alok c 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 00:47

delete
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#6 User is offline   alok c 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 00:47

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#7 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 02:49

Best I can see will make if clubs are 4-3 or hearts are Qxx or the diamond finesse is on, except where W has only 2 hearts and can overruff the third and the clubs fail to break.
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#8 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 05:01

View PostMrAce, on 2017-February-19, 23:58, said:

Think a bit more. You have much better line if you think your 3 rounds of and 3 rounds of will survive, as you relied on in your line.

IMO, It's a close decision because my line takes the kiddies off the streets.

For example, when s are 4-3, then I'm home
  • If trumps split 2-2.
  • if trumps are 3-1, then defenders need to follow to only 2 rounds of s.

If s are 5-2 but RHO can't over-ruff the 3rd round of s, then perhaps it's better to cross-ruff -- but, IMO, it's still close.
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#9 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 05:29

View Postnige1, on 2017-February-20, 05:01, said:

IMO, It's a close decision because I try to take the kiddies off the streets. e.g. If s are 4-3, then I'm home
  • If trumps split 2-2.
  • Failing that defenders need to follow to only 2 rounds of s.



This is true, but I'd quite like to make when hearts are Qxx/xxxxx and clubs don't break and the diamond finesse fails.

How about:

A
Aditching diamond
ruff
ruff high
ruff (if Q hasn't dropped doubleton)
ruff high

if clubs have split or Q has come down, this is over, if the doubleton heart is on my right there is no issue with a ruff or if E has 98, if nothing has worked yet I can fall back on my choice of the diamond finesse or hearts 4-4 depending on the discards, I have to choose because I have to discard something on the third round of trumps, and don't have the entry to cash the top heart first then take the diamond finesse.
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#10 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 10:00

You should try to hide the trump position, knowing west has 3 clearly suggests to play for cross ruff.
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#11 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 11:25

OK, suppose that LHO has x x x Q x x x x x x x x x.

My line still works:

Win A (both defenders follow). Ruff a , Cash AK discarding 2 s, Ruff a (discovering the 5-2 break). Cash AK (Q drops). Ruff a high. Cross to A. Ruff a high. Draw trumps with KJ and Cash J.

What if LHO discards a on the 3rd ?; For instance, if Q appears under A you still have a near certainty by delaying the cashing of K
Ruff a high. Cross to A, Ruff a high. Finish by cashing KJ (drawing trumps) and KJ
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#12 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 14:24

View Postnige1, on 2017-February-20, 11:25, said:

OK, suppose that LHO has x x x Q x x x x x x x x x.
My line still works:

Win A (both defenders follow). Ruff a , Cash AK discarding 2 s, Ruff a (discovering the 5-2 break)
Cash AK (Q drops). Ruff a high. Cross to A. Ruff a high.
Draw trumps with KJ and Cash J.

What if LHO discards a on the 3rd ? If Q appears early, then you delay cashing dummy's top(s). For instance, if Q appears under A you still have a near certainty by delaying the cashing of K. Ruff a high. Cross to A, Ruff a high. Finish with KJ (drawing trumps) and KJ.

This basic line still works if LHO has a singleton or doubleton Q.
For instance x x x Q x x x x x x x x x


Don't you have a potential problem where a heart is discarded from xxx on the clubs, where K is onside (effectively the first hand replacing HQ with x and Dx with K).
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#13 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 16:39

High crossruff lines look appealing. There are several variations:

a) S10, DA, HA, HK, H ruff low, CA, CK, C ruff, D ruff low, C ruff, D ruff low, high crossruff
b) As above but ruffing two hearts rather than two diamonds
c) SA, HA, HK, DA, H ruff low, CA, CK, club ruff low, D ruff low, high crossruff
d) As above but ruffing a second diamond rather than a heart

Ignoring cases where you can overruff:

a) needs hearts 5-3 or 4-4, diamonds 4-3, clubs 5-2 or 4-3
b) 4-4 ; 5-2 or 4-3 ; 5-2 or 4-3
c) 5-3 or 4-4 ; 4-3 or 5-2 ; 4-3
d) 6-2, 5-3, or 4-4; 4-3 ; 4-3

which naively gives a) 46%, b) 29%, c) 46%, d) 37%

Perhaps not so appealing after all then :P. Let's take an equally naive look at Cyberyeti's line of playing for either rounded suit to behave (5-3 hearts with Qxx or clubs 4-3): a whopping 70%!

It's almost certainly possible to combine chances, but I can't seem to figure out the best way to maintain entries to the long clubs should we manage to set them up. (Too late in the evening!)

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#14 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-February-20, 17:22

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-February-20, 14:24, said:

Don't you have a potential problem where a heart is discarded from xxx on the clubs, where K is onside (effectively the first hand replacing HQ with x and Dx with K).

Cyberyeti asks how we cope when a defender discards a on the 3rd round of s.
There is a similar problem when Q appears early. Here is the complete line, incorporating the slight improvements:

  • Win A (both defenders follow). Ruff a , Cash AK discarding 2 s, Ruff a .
  • If s are 4-3, then ruff a second . if that stands up, then claim: Ruff a with K, Cash QT, drawing trumps, Cash winners. Cross to A. and Cash AK.
  • If are 5-2, then Cash A discarding a .
  • If Q drops under A, then prospects are good: Ruff a high, Cross to A, Ruff Q high. Claim: Cash KJ, drawing trumps. Cash KJ.
  • When s are 5-2 and a is discarded, then you can test after cashing only one honour. i.e. After A. Ruff a high. if both defenders follow, then continue A. Ruff Q. As before you can now claim: Cash KJ. Cash KJ
  • If no has been discarded and Q doesn't drop under A then cash K discarding a . Ruff a high.
  • After ruffing s, if J isn't good, then Ruff it high, Finesse Q, Cash KJ. Cash A.

The important point, however, is that when s are 4-3, prospects are excellent, and you can claim early.
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#15 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2017-February-23, 21:37

Here is the list (scroll down in link, it is hand #2) They wrote my name wrong, they wrote "Timu Erkoq" Posted Image

http://www.d16acbl.o...20170217mna.htm
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#16 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2017-February-24, 00:04

View PostMrAce, on 2017-February-23, 21:37, said:

Here is the list (scroll down in link, it is hand #2) They wrote my name wrong, they wrote "Timu Erkoq" Posted Image

http://www.d16acbl.o...20170217mna.htm


Wow 3 sections.
Hi y'all!

Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
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#17 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-February-24, 03:00

View PostMrAce, on 2017-February-19, 17:16, said:


MP.

This hand came when Csaba (Gwnn) and I played at a club. Opponents are flight A players. I was N and Csaba got to play this hand.

Lead: 2 and other opponent follows with 8.

How do you plan the play?
(trumps are 3-1 if you cash them, W has 3 of them)

View PostMrAce, on 2017-February-23, 21:37, said:

Here is the list (scroll down in link, it is hand #2) They wrote my name wrong, they wrote "Timu Erkoq" Posted Image
http://www.d16acbl.o...20170217mna.htm

If you swap the minor-suit deuces, then my line works, trivially. :)
If you swap the red fives, then Aloc C's line works. :)

As the cards lie, our suggested lines would fail and no player seems to have made 13 tricks. :(

At double-dummy, however, Gib succeeds with his variant of Mr Ace's recommended cross-ruff:

Win A, Cash AK discarding s. Cash A. Ruff a low. Cash AK discarding s. Ruff a low. Ruff a low. Claim on a high cross-ruff.

Thank you, Mr Ace, for an interesting real-life problem. :)
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#18 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2017-February-24, 05:43

So the winning line is my line (d). I think at the table it would be hard to find this - even if opps are kind enough to give you count in hearts, it would look like 4-4 rather than 6-2; and when the CQ drops on the second top club, you'd be nervous to ruff low for fear of being overruffed by the 9.

Still, if you ruff a diamond first in order to postpone the decision on which red suit to ruff second, you may feel that diamonds are 4-3; and if you believe the heart count / CQ then you can come to the realization that East is 1642 or 2632, and the latter won't get you anywhere (clubs can't be set up, you can't afford to ruff a club high) so you must play for the former.

After making my post above I reflected on various lines and figured that ( c ) would be the one I would take at the table, which fails here when the third round of hearts gets overruffed. Ah well.

ahydra
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