[mrsock]

sorry if this is a FAQ

i've had a look through the BBO help pages, but i can find no mention of which systems are permitted. It might be worth putting this in, even if to say "all systems are allowed".

I only ask because i came up against two polish guys, playing Polish club, including the Wilkosz 2D. Now, i'm fairly sure this opening is banned by the WBF, in nearly every major event, and i'm sure it's banned by the ACBL too. so this makes me think that it is probably banned on BBO.

I politely asked the Polish opps if they thought it was legal to play Wilkosz 2D, and they said that it was just part of a standard Polish club system, and therefore must be legal! I didn't bother arguing, especially since they had just got a bottom from using it!

[luis]

What can we do.... what can we do.....
STOP THIS, PLEASE STOP THIS!
POLISH PLAYERS ARE NOT EVIL
REPEAT: POLISH PLAYERS ARE NOT EVIL
Can we post such a message in the lobby or something?

I wonder if the ACBL requieres their players to take a course on witch-hunting before giving them the honor to pay the ACBL a fee.
So you do accept a multi 2d that can be weak in a major or strong or a three suiter or britney spears but you want to ban a 2d that can be any weak 5-5 including a major? What is the #### difference? Now please explain me what is the difference between the "ACBL legal" multi 2d and Wilkosz 2d despite the later being invented by a non american player....

I'm also interested in why are you so interested in banning systems and so? Don't you have a local club where a group of old players who by coincidence teach SAYC to beginners have banned everything but SAYC? Would you like to go to Poland and find SAYC banned ?

I'm sorry if this was too strong but I'm just incredibly amazed by the wave of posts against Polish clubbers. If you can't win against them is because they play better than you not because of their system. And if it is because of their system then what? Do you want to ban it so you can win? I don't get it. I don't get it.

[csdenmark]

On BBO like in high-level competitions all kind of systems and conventions are acceptable. All bids not standard in SAYC must be alerted and explained. If in doubt - you must alert!

So far so good - fair and simple. I have also had bad experiences with poles. Mostly they dont have the skills in english needed for going international. Somebody ought to tell them that standards for alerts of bids in Polish Club is different outside Poland where this system is only one of many and not main-stream as in Poland.

If somebody like to know - Wilkosz convention is not used by the 2 polish top-pairs Balicki/Zmudzinski and Kwiecien/Pszczola. They both use the new polish approach:

2D=6-11,a 6cd MAJOR
2H=6-11,5cd + a suit
2S=6-11,5cd + a minor
2NT=6-11,5-5 minors


I think I do whatever possible to pre-alert the system in general and alert and explain all bids where such is in place. I always play acc. to a loaded convention card which opps. are informed of and they are asked to load a cc for their system too. Sad to say - really nobody loads a convention card. Now I have started simply to query all low-level bids of opps( <3NT) if they dont load a cc.

Time will show if that is acceptable to them constantly to re-write explanations or instead live up to the standards for the game - playing according to the rules stated in their convention card.

[hrothgar]

mrsock said


i've had a look through the BBO help pages, but i can find no mention of which systems are permitted. It might be worth putting this in, even if to say "all systems are allowed".

I only ask because i came up against two polish guys, playing Polish club, including the Wilkosz 2D. Now, i'm fairly sure this opening is banned by the WBF, in nearly every major event, and i'm sure it's banned by the ACBL too. so this makes me think that it is probably banned on BBO.



I will note yet again:

I see no reason why BBO should adopt any kind of systems policy. Rather, I favor a devolution of authority.
In the case of play within a the main bridge club, I feel that the table server should have the option to decide what "rules" will be followed at his table.

In the case of tournaments, the individual hosting the tournament is in an equivalent position.

I recognize that not everyone favors this style of creative chaos. I am a strong believer that groups of individuals can and should self organize into "clubs". The purpose of a club is to identified a set of like minded individuals who share a specific set of beliefs regarding regulatory structures, alerts, convention restrictions, and the like.

As to the role of BBO. Ideally, the BBO programmers will be able to add features that make it easier for players to self organize. For example, we might eventually see a feature by which the main bridge club can be subdivided into a series of seperate membership clubs. Players who prefer a rough and ready world would have the option to play in the Open Room. Players who prefer a more structured game could join a Private Club like the "Griffins" and be guarunteed the opportunity to play bridge using the set of regulations that best fits their needs.

Who knows: Someday we might even be able to sit down and watch the long awaited rematch between the Unicorns and the Griffins.

I'm not sure when this schism "should take place". Clearly, a large part of the value of BBO as an club is the ability to find tables to play at 24 hours a day. Fragmenting the user base into a series of small clubs decreases the utility of the site and may slow down the growth rate.

Ultimately, I think that this makes too much sense for it not to occur. People are diverse. They want different thinks. I don't think that a one size fits all approach is optimal. The trick is to design things in such a way that it is easy for players to continue to socialize with new people from across the world while still having the ability to conveniently and easily find the type of game that they will enjoy the most.

The major stumbling block is finding individuals who are willing to undertake the thankless task of organizing the first major club. Personally, i would expect that the first club would arise out of one of two constituencies. The first is an Educational Organization like the Fifth Chair group that wants to provide a protected playing environment for beginners. The second would be the set of ACBL players who are used to an extremely restrictive set of regulations.

it will be interesting to see what happens

[mrsock]

sorry, i apologise - i didn't realise feelings were so strong. i thought it might be a FAQ, but i couldn't find any other recent posts about it.

i don't have anything against Polish club - in fact i rather like playing against it. I certainly didn't say Polish players are evil (did i?). I only meant to inquire if there were any rules about which conventions are allowed. I disagree that the Wilkosz 2D is an integral part of Polish club. I'm playing at an international tournament in Poland, next weekend, and i expect to see a lot of people playing Polish club, i'm not sure if the Wilkosz 2D will be allowed there though - i'm sure i'll find out...

My partner on this BBO session was a beginner, and she was minced by a standard weak 2H on the following board (passing with Kxx - x - Axx - AKQJxx). A Wilkosz 2D is far more difficult for any player to cope with. So difficult, in fact, that the WBF have chosen to ban it from world championships and other major events (or am i wrong about that?). The reason for the ban (presumably to help other countries beat the Polish more easily) isn't really relevant.

i guess my question was really if BBO falls under any particular national bridge organisation, or if "anything goes" as far as permitted systems. If so, i'd really like to play a forcing pass Moscito-type system...

btw i'm not a redneck american, i'm in the UK. I don't like to see lots of unnecessary rules and regulations about what can and can't be played. But i do like to know what the rules are, because i'm petty like that.

[Gerardo]

As I understand it, no systems are banned, ANYTHING goes.
I personally hope that never changes.
However,
you should alert as if opps doesn't know your system,
and DEFINATELY do so if opps asks you to do it.
Currently, most tables are set only for the fun of playing, results are just ad-hoc, rankings are avoided by design, results are not compared beyond a tourney, and at this point, they may be meaningless, as Ben pointed out, in such unleveled field, you have to have good results AND receive more gifts than the others.
Maybe, when tourneys get more serious (teams, multi session, etc) it will make MORE sense to rule to provide a CC before the event, to post in a public place. Not that if doesn't make sense now, but bit overkill, and impossible providing you can play with a pickup partner found 1 min before start.
I think PROPER alerting is sufficient for now.
Check other threads, especially in tourneys section, for long discussion of what is or not a proper alert.

[fred]

Quote

sorry if this is a FAQ

i've had a look through the BBO help pages, but i can find no mention of which systems are permitted. It might be worth putting this in, even if to say "all systems are allowed".

I only ask because i came up against two polish guys, playing Polish club, including the Wilkosz 2D. Now, i'm fairly sure this opening is banned by the WBF, in nearly every major event, and i'm sure it's banned by the ACBL too. so this makes me think that it is probably banned on BBO.

I politely asked the Polish opps if they thought it was legal to play Wilkosz 2D, and they said that it was just part of a standard Polish club system, and therefore must be legal! I didn't bother arguing, especially since they had just got a bottom from using it!

The approach we have taken is that it is up to
table and tournament hosts to decide which
systems and conventions are allowed at their
tables or in their tournaments.

We have been pretty laissez faire in terms of the
question of which bids should be alerted. I was
hoping that standards would evolve that would
work well for everyone, but perhaps that was naive.

For the record I think that Polish Club and any of
the "non-standard" responses and rebids should
be alerted. I suspect that word will eventually
spread through among the Polish members of
BBO that they should do this.

I am not at all suggesting that any of our many
fine Polish members are intentionally trying to gain
an advantage through (lack of) alerts. Language
problems and having to alert bids which are
"standard" for them are the reasons for this problem.

We could do more to help this (and other) problems
by posting articles in Polish (and other languages)
in the Bridge Library, creating BB-Polish convention
cards, improving the convention card and alert
aspects of the software...

Unfortunatey, we are stretched pretty thin in terms
of manpower, but if the are any volunteers among
our members who want to create convention cards
and/or content in various langauges, that would
be great.

Going to a long tournament soon. May not be able to
post any more for a couple of weeks...

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[csdenmark]

Files for handling all of the uploaded systems incl. convention cards in ZONE- and BBO-layout. You will also find a file to most systems containing relevant texts to insert into the alert-box. All available for download to your computer from this link:

http://groups.msn.co...stallation.msnw

To access the files please first follow the instructions on this help-site:

http://groups.msn.co...FILES/help.msnw

[DrTodd13]

As far as I know, Wilkosz is brown sticker and is therefore allowed
in any WBF events where brown sticker is allowed. I'm sure it is
common in Poland and people know how to defend against it.

If people want to fragment and start a club where certain
conventions are banned then that is fine. My only gripe is when
people don't alert things that are clearly artificial and likely not
to be known by opponents.

With on-line bridge, proper alerting methods are so much easier.
Can't we just have a standard to alert all artificial bids? How hard
is it to hit the alert button and type stayman?

[luis]

I guess that language is the problem in most cases, some players mya not be alerting because they just can't explain what the bid is for their lack of english. Maybe some pop-up tool to enter a description of the bid that can be universally understood is what we need, something that could then be read in the screen as
4+s, unbal 11-14 may have a longer minor, 3-h
Maybe a simple interface like:

♠ [combo with <.>,=] [combo with 1..7]
same for hearts
same for diamonds
same for clubs
HCP: From [combo] to [combo]
[] balanced [] unbalanced [] forcing [] not forcing
[] INV+ [] GF [] signoff [] Splinter [] relay
Other: [................................................................]

I'm not sure, maybe it helps maybe it just will scare players from alerting....

[hrothgar]

I've been convinced for a long time that this problem won't be solved until me can automate the alert structure. We need to idiot-proof the system.

As I have suggested in the past, the core of any system would need to be a file format that mapped a specific bidding sequence to a hypertext string. Once this standard was agreed up, it should be possible to represent a bidding system such as Polish Club, BBO Advanced, or even MOSCITO as a Convention File.

In turn, the convention file could be used to

(a) Automate alerts
( Act as a learning tool for new players.

Sadly, designing such a convention file is not trivial. Try to enumerate every possible bidding sequence is problematic. I would suspect that it would work best to allow the use of some type of scripting language. Sadly, the coding is far beyond me.

[Cave_Draco]

Claus said "All bids not standard in SAYC must be alerted and explained."

Implying that everyone should know SAYC?

I disagree, Majors 4+, minors 3+? fine! All NT ranges should be announced, fine.

It would help if ALL systems were pre-alerted, we pre-alert Benj Acol, why not pre-alert SAYC?

:-D

[JRG]

The original post queried the lack of information in the Online Help files about which systems are allowed.

The Online Help has been set up to explain how the BBO software works: such things as bidding boxes, alert dialogs, setting one's user profile options.

With the advent of tournaments, the Help system has grown.

There are things in it that are not strictly about how the software works. There is even a FAQ, but it tended to answer questions such as "When are you going to improve the convention card facility?" and has not had anything new added to it in a long time.

So, the questions:

Do people feel there is stuff in the help that doesn't belong?

Do people feel there is stuff that should be added to the online help?

Any constructive criticisms?