[Chamaco]

Hi all, suppose you hold, playing Precision

♠xx
♥AQxx
♦KQTxx
♣xx


You are white 1st seat, and at this situation, 1D shows either 4+D max 15 hcp, OR a balanced hand 13-15.
1NT opener at this vuln shows 10-12.

I have to decide what to open.
I do not mind opening 1NT with 5422 but I hate to do it with values concentrated in 2 suits like here.

So I open 1D and pard responds 1S. Now I cannot rebid 1NT (that would show 13-15).

Should I rebid diamonds or 2 hearts ?
What type of hand would the 2 hearts "reverse" show ? ( I assume distributional reverse with 5-5.5 losers, usually has a good 65 D+H).

[the hog]

2H should show 14-15 with 4H and 6(5) good Ds

If you play a 10-12 NT, then open this 1NT. The concentration of values is totally irrelevant. Ask yourself why you are opening 1NT with 10-12. Clearly to cause problems for the opposition. You have the hand - open the bidding!

Fwiw Mauro, I play exactly the same. If I have a 4441 with 10-12, I open 1NT. The intent is pre emptive in nature.

Ron

[hrothgar]

Chamaco, on Apr 16 2005, 02:51 PM, said:

Hi all, suppose you hold, playing Precision

♠xx
♥AQxx
♦KQTxx
♣xx


You are white 1st seat, and at this situation, 1D shows either 4+D max 15 hcp, OR a balanced hand 13-15.
1NT opener at this vuln shows 10-12.

I have to decide what to open.
I do not mind opening 1NT with 5422 but I hate to do it with values concentrated in 2 suits like here.

So I open 1D and pard responds 1S. Now I cannot rebid 1NT (that would show 13-15).

Should I rebid diamonds or 2 hearts ?
What type of hand would the 2 hearts "reverse" show ? ( I assume distributional reverse with 5-5.5 losers, usually has a good 65 D+H).

You're fixed..

In part by system, but primarily by your decision to open this 1♦.
I think that the hand SHOULD be opened 1NT, despite the shape/concentrated values.

If you find this unpalatable, then consider opening 1♥ and rebidding in Diamonds.

At this point, your only real choice is to rebid 2♦. Reversing into Hearts would show a much better hand. (Please note, if you can't rebid 1NT because this would show a 13-15 HCP point, you sure as hell can't reverse)

[pbleighton]

1NT is clear. Live by the sword, die by the sword )

I LOVE playing 1NT white undoubled, especially when the opener is weak enough that most of the field will be passing it. That's why you're playing 10-12 NT, right?

And no, you can't reverse.

Peter

[Chamaco]

pbleighton, on Apr 16 2005, 01:05 PM, said:

1NT is clear. Live by the sword, die by the sword )

I LOVE playing 1NT white undoubled, especially when the opener is weak enough that most of the field will be passing it. That's why you're playing 10-12 NT, right?

Agree with most of what you say, BUT: I hate to give to my pard a distorted picture of my hand.

This hand is clearly suit-oriented.

xx-AQxx-KQTxx-xx

and

KJx-QTx-Axxx-Jxx

Have a totally different playing power.

If I oopen the 1st hand 10-12 NT, pard will be too conservative, because I delivered him of a playing strength lower.


I mean, I would open 1NT with no second thoughts this hand, same values, but scattered:
Ax-Qxxx-KTxxx-Qx

[luke warm]

i'd open this hand 1H

[mikestar]

Chamaco, on Apr 16 2005, 01:10 PM, said:

... I hate to give to my pard a distorted picture of my hand.

This hand is clearly suit-oriented.

xx-AQxx-KQTxx-xx

and

KJx-QTx-Axxx-Jxx

Have a totally different playing power.

If I oopen the 1st hand 10-12 NT, pard will be too conservative, because I delivered him of a playing strength lower.


I mean, I would open 1NT with no second thoughts this hand, same values, but scattered:
Ax-Qxxx-KTxxx-Qx

Also, for 3NT partner needs more strength in the black suits opposite your actual hand than opposite a typical 10-12 NT and has no way to know it.

To open 1NT here will cause the enemy problems, but gives up on constructive bidding.

Opening 1H is dangerous in a five card major system as partner will often give preference to hearts with a doubleton, even holding 3 diamonds. shall we play our 4-2 fit instead of our 5-3 fit? In a four card major system 1H stands out--partner knows we may have only four and won't give preference on a doubleton, so the worst outcome is a 4-3 heart fit vs. a 5-3 diamond fit: much more palatable.

So in your system I would open 1D and rebid 2D.

This hand is one of the losing cases for your system no matter how you bid it. No argument against your system--all systems have losing cases. System design has an element of "what mistakes do we prefer to make?" to it.

[luke warm]

Jlall, on Apr 16 2005, 10:45 AM, said:

1H then 2D: Lying about a FIFTH heart which is pretty important

unless it isn't a lie, which is the way i prefer to play it

[flytoox]

I would pass with this hand.

[hrothgar]

flytoox, on Apr 16 2005, 09:40 PM, said:

I would pass with this hand.

Impossible...

Strong Club Openings are hideous things.

If you are going to play strong club, you MUST have a systemic mechanism to open nice 6 losers hands like this one...

[keylime]

1NT is a horrible bid that lucks out since you can run out to 2♦. Barely palatable.

1D-1S-2D, probably likely.

1D-1NT, yick.

I open 1D due to no controls in my doubletons. I try to be disciplined.

[flytoox]

hrothgar, on Apr 16 2005, 06:47 PM, said:

flytoox, on Apr 16 2005, 09:40 PM, said:

I would pass with this hand.

Impossible...

Strong Club Openings are hideous things.

If you are going to play strong club, you MUST have a systemic mechanism to open nice 6 losers hands like this one...

Playing precision doesnt mean you have to open all 11hcp hands. This is especially true if you play 2/1 gf in precision. What do you lose by passing? I doubt it is much.

[han]

I would open 1NT, I consider it best of evils.

Only other option imo would be 1D followed by 2D.

[hrothgar]

flytoox, on Apr 16 2005, 10:19 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Apr 16 2005, 06:47 PM, said:

flytoox, on Apr 16 2005, 09:40 PM, said:

I would pass with this hand.

Impossible...

Strong Club Openings are hideous things.

If you are going to play strong club, you MUST have a systemic mechanism to open nice 6 losers hands like this one...

Playing precision doesnt mean you have to open all 11hcp hands. This is especially true if you play 2/1 gf in precision. What do you lose by passing? I doubt it is much.

As I noted earlier, this is a very good 11 count. I'd be shocked to see a good Precision pair pass this hand. Change the hand to something like

♠ xx
♥ AQxx
♦ KT98x
♣ xx

and pass starts looking reasonable...

As to what you lose by passing: You lose the ability to start describing your hand before the opponents find their Spade fit...

[luke warm]

there's no way i'd pass this hand playing a strong club system... it's even better if 1h is known to be a 2 suiter

[keylime]

I gave this hand to pard: no bid in 1st/2nd seat due to inability of proper rebid.

[luke warm]

dwayne, how is there no rebid if you open 1h?

[flytoox]

luke warm, on Apr 16 2005, 08:49 PM, said:

dwayne, how is there no rebid if you open 1h?

Jimmy, like u said, if playing 4cM, i would open 1H, but if playing 5cM, then pass isnt that bad. The reason is exactly dwayne said, no ideal rebid.

[flytoox]

hrothgar, on Apr 16 2005, 07:53 PM, said:

As to what you lose by passing: You lose the ability to start describing your hand before the opponents find their Spade fit...

The problem with opening is that by rebid anything you DISTORT your hand.