[portia2]

What should North bid? Thanks

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[Tramticket]

What strength is your NT?

But assuming that 3♣ is forcing for you, it seems the obvious continuation.

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2016-December-06, 05:55, said:

What strength is your NT?

But assuming that 3♣ is forcing for you, it seems the obvious continuation.

Well one of 3♣ and 2♣ then 3♣ must be forcing with clubs, I bid whichever is that.

[ggwhiz]

I recommend you read up on new minor forcing and add it to your card. This is a hand that is complicated to get to the right spot without using ALL your available bidding space.

Playing NMF, 2♣ is artificial and at least game invitational. First duty of opener is to show 3 card hearts or 4 card spades (or bid 2♦ with neither). After that, 2♥ if available or 2nt by your hand is only invitational and can be passed but anything else like 3♣ (or a jump to 3♥ on a different hand or if you prefer) is forcing to game.

Add something like this convention 1 at a time until you get used to it.

[kenberg]

Honestly I think I would just bid 4C, I assume that's Gerber, and then bid 6H if partner has at least one ace, 4H if he doesn't. I realize the club Q is a very important card here, but so are the aces. If partner has the Qxxx in clubs, two small hearts and both aces, I suppose 7C is virtually cold, while 7H goes down on a 4-1 split. And maybe some people can discover all of this but I can't, so I just trust hearts are coming in. If partner has two aces it reduces the probability that s/h has the club Q so I am settling for 6H.

Maybe not optimal, but I think it is practical.

[kenberg]

pls delete, duplicate

[sfi]

kenberg, on 2016-December-06, 17:47, said:

Honestly I think I would just bid 4C, I assume that's Gerber

Surely that's more likely to be a slam try with long hearts and short clubs, isn't it?

I want to show a forcing hand with clubs. Hopefully 3C does this.

[nige1]

portia2 asks "What should North bid?"

I rank
1. 2♦ = REL if playing 2-Way Checkback.
2. 2♣ = REL if playing Crowhurst.
3. 2♠ = TRF if you've agreed transfers.
4. 3♣ = NAT F1, if that is your agreement (In a check-back context, I play this as a shapely hand, NAT, INV but NF. Hence this hand is far too strong).

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[kenberg]

sfi, on 2016-December-06, 18:21, said:

Surely that's more likely to be a slam try with long hearts and short clubs, isn't it?

I want to show a forcing hand with clubs. Hopefully 3C does this.

With many people I play that a jump to 4C, directly over a natural NT, is gerber. It must be over a natural NT, and it must be a jump.

The self splinter indeed is useful but a choice must be made.

Whatever agreements we have, unless we have some way to learn if partner has the club Q, my plan would be to put us in 6H if partner has at least one ace, and put us in 4H if he has no aces.

No doubt some people have the tools to set clubs as trump for the purposes of rkc, then they learn if partner has the club Q, and then they can place the contract. If pard has Qxxx in clubs, the two missing aces, and only xx in hearts, I would say 7H has good chances but 7C is a near certainty so I would bid the grand in clubs.

But I lack those tools in any partnership I have, so I would just check on aces and then bid 4H or 6H.

Now suppose partner and I have not discussed whether 1D-1H-1NT-4C is Gerber. So I start with NMF: 1D-1H-1NT-2C(nmf)-2D(only two hearts)-3C(strong with clubs)-4C(club fit) . If we have not discussed whether 1D-1H-1NT-4C is Gerber, I bet we also have not discussed how I now ask for key cards over 1D-1H-1NT-2C-2D-3C-4C.

So part of the answer to the OP question is: What agreements are you confident that you have? If I am playing 2 way NMF, as I sometimes do, then there are other options.

I think that my described agreement for when Gerber applies is simple and easy to remember, and useful, so I like it.

[gszeszycki]

The concept here is we have NO CLUE how many controls opener has when they rebid 1n and no simple way to find out. The next best thing is to try and show where ten (+)of our cards are located (!H !C) and let p decide if they have a slammish hand or not. The bidding we are going to describe uses something called the Principle Of Fast Arrival (POFA). POFA essentially means when you know where you are going go directly there. If you go slowly somewhere it shows extra values.

1d
1h
1n
3c*
How the bidding proceeds depends on what opener bids next. If opener cannot bid 3n our hand becomes much better mainly because opener has limited "wasted" power in one of our singletons. For the time being we will assume opener bids 3n. We still have no idea if they hold Axx Jx Axxxx QJx it would be super superb and we would have 13 tricks off the top. If opener holds KQJ xx KQJx Qxx. Now the 5 level could be in jeopardy (if you were to explore for slam) if !H split poorly.

3n
4h NOW the reason for the bidding has been revealed. By bidding 3c first THEN going to 4h responder has used the Principle of Fast Arrival by SLOWLY arriving at 4H. Responder could easily have jumped to 4h earlier in the bidding but by choosing to go slowly they have shown extra values. Responder is asking opener to look at their hand (in context of the bidding) and decide if it looks slammish or not. The !S and !D ace are superb values along with anything located in !H/!C. Opener makes the next decision go or no go.

[sfi]

kenberg, on 2016-December-06, 20:09, said:

So part of the answer to the OP question is: What agreements are you confident that you have?

That really is the crux of the question, isn't it? Given that we have no information I was presuming the person holding this hand wasn't confident about any agreements and wanted thoughts on what might be standard.

The problem is that not much is "standard" here. 3C could be forcing or invitational. 2C is likely to be some sort of checkback, but may not be if the players are novices. 4C could be ace asking, asking for key cards in hearts, or a splinter. And so on.

Having agreements is good. If I really had no idea what we were playing I would be tempted to bid 6C over 1NT. It can't be too far wrong.

[kenberg]

sfi, on 2016-December-06, 20:35, said:

That really is the crux of the question, isn't it? Given that we have no information I was presuming the person holding this hand wasn't confident about any agreements and wanted thoughts on what might be standard.

The problem is that not much is "standard" here. 3C could be forcing or invitational. 2C is likely to be some sort of checkback, but may not be if the players are novices. 4C could be ace asking, asking for key cards in hearts, or a splinter. And so on.

Having agreements is good. If I really had no idea what we were playing I would be tempted to bid 6C over 1NT. It can't be too far wrong.

This 6C call also occurred to me. Message: We are playing in slam, in hearts or in clubs, you choose. If they cash the first two aces, tough luck.


And yes, we could go at this as How do we bid with whe conventions we usually play? Or as What would be the most helpful? Or as What do we do if we have no agreements?

Playing on BBO I have come to enjoy these "minimal agreements" problems. If everyone keeps cool it can be interesting.

[mike777]

portia2, on 2016-December-06, 04:15, said:

What should North bid? Thanks

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1) FWIW 2D AS GF CHECKBAK=====FUNNY ENOUGH 3C HERE WOULD BE LONG CLUBS AND WEAK.
2) ONCE WE ARE IN GF HOPEFULLY WE CAN SORT IT ALL OUT....DIFFICULT HAND



1D=1H
1NT=2D(GF, MANY HANDS_


I GRANT i FULLY GRANT TELLING PARD WE ARE 6-5 AND WE RE GF IS TOUGH.

[GrahamJson]

The way such hands are normally handled on BBO is by bidding 4NT and announcing to table "0314". It works every time.

[msjennifer]

The experts cteate unnecessary confusion by giving artificial meaning to natural bids like 2D and 3C. A natural jump shift to 3C is never considered to show weak clubs but always shows a strong double suiter ,as given in all books on standard systems, forcing at least to game and perhaps,as can be made evident later by cue bids etc,even slam ambitioned.3C bid stands out clearly the best bid and keeps the level low.If over 3C ,opener does not show 3 cards in hearts then since he has not bid spades or rebid diamonds his hand is likely 3253 or 3244 .In either case he will then have 3/4 card club fit.His possible rebids are 3D,3H,3NT.4C.Responder can easily make out openers hand and either cue bid (with a 3card heart or 4 card club fit) or use RKCB with or without Spiral.The two suiter concentrated values hands are tempting and more so the illustrated hand.One has got to find out ways and means to make rebids which will genuinely show the distribution,strength and hand pattern keeping the level forcing yet low to find out openers hand more clearly as far as possible.(May not be possible in every case).These types are easier when partner has opened the bidding rather than over called.LHO opens 1S. Partner over calls 2D (vulnerable overcall),RHO bids 2H you hold, Void-x-Jxxxx-KQxxxxx what do you bid.?If available LHO will bid 4S,This is an actual hand from BBO.

[phillip101]

Partner does not appear to have 4 of any suit except diamonds, so is probably 3433.

[Tramticket]

phillip101, on 2016-December-07, 05:11, said:

Partner does not appear to have 4 of any suit except diamonds, so is probably 3433.

Really? 2353, 3253, 3352, 2344, 3244 all look possible. Depending upon methods, 4342, 4243, 2245, 2254, 2362, 3262, 2263, 4144 may also be possible (have I missed any?).

[kenberg]

msjennifer, on 2016-December-07, 04:01, said:

The experts cteate unnecessary confusion by giving artificial meaning to natural bids like 2D and 3C. A natural jump shift to 3C is never considered to show weak clubs but always shows a strong double suiter ,as given in all books on standard systems, forcing at least to game and perhaps,as can be made evident later by cue bids etc,even slam ambitioned.3C bid stands out clearly the best bid and keeps the level low.If over 3C ,opener does not show 3 cards in hearts then since he has not bid spades or rebid diamonds his hand is likely 3253 or 3244 .In either case he will then have 3/4 card club fit.His possible rebids are 3D,3H,3NT.4C.Responder can easily make out openers hand and either cue bid (with a 3card heart or 4 card club fit) or use RKCB with or without Spiral.The two suiter concentrated values hands are tempting and more so the illustrated hand.One has got to find out ways and means to make rebids which will genuinely show the distribution,strength and hand pattern keeping the level forcing yet low to find out openers hand more clearly as far as possible.(May not be possible in every case).These types are easier when partner has opened the bidding rather than over called.LHO opens 1S. Partner over calls 2D (vulnerable overcall),RHO bids 2H you hold, Void-x-Jxxxx-KQxxxxx what do you bid.?If available LHO will bid 4S,This is an actual hand from BBO.

Usually it is safe to assume a pick-up partner plays New Minor Forcing. This assumption is not being made to create unnecessary confusion, it is simply an observation of what I have come to expect when playing on BBO. But while I would assume, usually correctly, that 2C would be NMF I have less confidence in what comes next on hands such as this. Bidding 2C over 1NT and then 3C should clearly be different from directly bidding 3C over 1NT. I think the most common agreement is that 2C followed by 3C is strong, a direct bid of 3C is either invitational with some or weak with others.

SAYC does not include NMF, although many people who say they play SAYC include NMF as an "everybody knows that" sort of thing. If not playing NMF then it seems reasonable to play that a direct 2C is weak, asking for a choice between clubs and hearts (a la Goren) and 3C is strong.

Without discussion, I would be hesitant to assume partner and I are on the same wavelength in any sequnce.
Mike mentions an artificial 2D. I also mentioned this, more or less as an aside sine I would not assume it to be artificial unless we had discussed it. But playing 2 way nmf, then 2D followed by 3C is strong, 2C relays to 2D and then a bid of 3C is invitational, and a direct bid of 3C over 1NT is weak. I expect you already know this and we can agree that this is not a practical route here unless we have agreed to play 2-way NMF. But I disagree that 3C over 1NT is obviously strong. W/o discussion, I don't think it is obvious at all.

But I think the problem is at a more basic one of agreement. Take your sequence: 1D-1H-1NT-3C, and assume it is strong. Now suppose opener fits clubs. What happens next? In my view, 3NT would be to play, 3H would accept hearts. I am not sure how I would treat 3D. I would treat 3S over 3C as accepting clubs and showing a spade control. I would treat a raise of 3C to 4C as accepting clubs without a spade control. So let's assume that after the 3C partner bids either 4C or 3S. Now what? I need to know about the spade and diamond aces, and I need to know about the club Q. I find out how?

I don't doubt that there are many partnerships who have an answer to this, but with any partnership I have I don't. Perhaps 4D is kickback. Or maybe 4S. Even having 4NT as rkc might be ok providing that if the answer is 0 keys then I can sign off in 5H. But I doubt that I can.

So if we are going for simple, I think 1D-1H-1NT-4C(Gerber) is simple. More often than not we will take the same number of tricks in hearts as in clubs. Usually we will lose no hearts. Maybe they split 3-2, maybe partner has three, maybe partner has Jx, and even if partner has xx and they split 4-1 maybe the J is stiff. . We will lose to whichever ace or aces the opponents have. The club suit might be fine,but if there is a gap it might be better it clubs are not trump so that I can, if maybe pard has both aces and the Jxx in clubs, play on clubs last. For that matter, if partner has Qxx in clubs it might be very useful to play on clubs last it they are 4-1.

So: :Lacking sophisticated gadgetry, and I take the OP to assume no sophisticated gadgetry , I will be playing this in hearts. The question is how high? I don't regard gerber as sophisticated gadgetry, but w/o discussion that could also be a trap.

So the whole thread could be seen as an advertisement for getting our agreements straight.

[ggwhiz]

kenberg, on 2016-December-07, 08:55, said:

Usually it is safe to assume a pick-up partner plays New Minor Forcing.

It's usually safe to assume that a pick-up partner will bid over 2♣ just in case. If they have any rating number above 2 they have likely experienced this no agreement scenario before.

[GrahamJson]

"It's usually safe to assume...." Stop there. On BBO it's rarely safe to assume anything.