[661_Pete]

Very simple question: what bid?

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The reason I ask is, what I thought was the 'correct' bid by me, earned me a comprehensive ear-bashing - not by partner, but by one of my opponents who obviously knew more than I do. I'm interested to know who was right.

[Tramticket]

It depends on your methods. Even most Acol players use a 2NT response these days to show spade support and game going values.

Without this bid you are forced to bid 2 clubs, then bid 4 spades at your next turn (a delayed game raise). Given the quality of your clubs, this isn't a bad option even if you do have 2NT available as showing spade support.

[helene_t]

3♣ is an option but probably most require a slightly better hand for this. The delayed game raise is not bad but it doesn't necessarily show the fourth spade since partner may show extra spade length on his next turn.

I certainly wouldn't argue with anyone who bid 2♣, 3♣, 2NT or even a pudding raise of 3nt maybe. Unless I knew your partnership had some specific agreements about this hand, of course.

The only thing that is clearly wrong, though, is 3♠ or any jump to the 4-level.

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2016-November-04, 06:33, said:

It depends on your methods. Even most Acol players use a 2NT response these days to show spade support and game going values.

Without this bid you are forced to bid 2 clubs, then bid 4 spades at your next turn (a delayed game raise). Given the quality of your clubs, this isn't a bad option even if you do have 2NT available as showing spade support.

Other people use 3♣ as either single suited rock crusher or GF 5-4 like this, we do this with any rebids other than 3N/4♣ showing spade support.

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-November-04, 06:43, said:

Other people use 3♣ as either single suited rock crusher or GF 5-4 like this, we do this with any rebids other than 3N/4♣ showing spade support.

In standard Acol, 3♣ is considerably stronger than this. A good 16+ HCP and either:
- A good quality six-card suit.
- A a five-card suit and support for opener.

This hand is not even worth 14 points with the two red suit queen doubletons.

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2016-November-04, 06:49, said:

In standard Acol, 3♣ is considerably stronger than this. A good 16+ HCP and either:
- A good quality six-card suit.
- A a five-card suit and support for opener.

This hand is not even worth 14 points with the two red suit queen doubletons.

Indeed, but the some of the same people who modify Acol by using the 2N raise as either GF or "Good raise to 3 plus", also modify the jump shift.

Our requirements are essentially one of the top 3 to at least 4 trumps, minimum one of the top 2 and 3 of the top 5 in the suit bid to at least 5 and enough to game force.

We have a good record bidding thin slams in this type of auction, Qxxx, x, Kxx, AK10xx would be a typical minimum for the bid.

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-November-04, 07:08, said:

Indeed, but the some of the same people who modify Acol by using the 2N raise as either GF or "Good raise to 3 plus", also modify the jump shift.

Our requirements are essentially one of the top 3 to at least 4 trumps, minimum one of the top 2 and 3 of the top 5 in the suit bid to at least 5 and enough to game force.

We have a good record bidding thin slams in this type of auction, Qxxx, x, Kxx, AK10xx would be a typical minimum for the bid.

Fair enough - as long as you and your partner are on the same wavelength.

Helene also mentioned a pudding raise - which I still play with one partner.

The key Pete, is that you and your partner need to have agreements. And opponents should stick to discussing their own system, not yours!

[Cyberyeti]

I would add simple old fashioned Acol, you delayed game raise, 2♣ then 4♠, although some really old fashioned players don't play 4♠ as a preempt, and 4♠ would be balanced-ish with 4 spades (not the best choice on this hand, but put a club into one of the red suits and they'd bid 4♠ rather than DGR).

[Zelandakh]

helene_t, on 2016-November-04, 06:42, said:

The only thing that is clearly wrong, though, is 3♠ or any jump to the 4-level.

3♠ yes but the first form of Acol I learned used a 4♦ response to a 1M opening bid as a game-forcing raise, an old-fashioned form of Swiss, so I would not like to rule out a jump to the 4 level as categorically wrong.

Outside of any special agreements, it seems clear to respond 2♣. After that we can either use the DGR, as already mentioned, or bid the fourth suit if we want to take it more slowly.

[billw55]

Not an acol player, but from the responses it seems that there is not one right answer. Although there are few wrong ones, or ambiguous ones.

Anyway, the simplest answer is, use your forcing raise. If you don't have one, bid 2♣.

[661_Pete]

OK thanks for the replies.
This was how I actually bid and these were the north-south hands (incidentally this was not on BBO):

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OK some say I'm too weak for a GF jump response (maybe trumps not solid, and possible 4 losers in red suits), I thought otherwise but it's debatable, and I see some have suggested 3♣ above, so I'm not the only one. Anyway I was still thinking possible slam when partner showed his (very weak) hearts, so I was a bit taken aback when we stopped in 3. No matter.

As it turned out partner only took 9 tricks. Game should be on, on those cards, but he was under no pressure .

The well-informed opponent said I should have bid 2♣, whatever. I suppose she's right. Still, it's very unusual to have a full-blown argument at our nice friendly U3A. Shook me a bit....

[Cyberyeti]

661_Pete, on 2016-November-04, 10:21, said:

OK thanks for the replies.
This was how I actually bid and these were the north-south hands (incidentally this was not on BBO):

---

OK some say I'm too weak for a GF jump response (maybe trumps not solid, and possible 4 losers in red suits), I thought otherwise but it's debatable, and I see some have suggested 3♣ above, so I'm not the only one. Anyway I was still thinking possible slam when partner showed his (very weak) hearts, so I was a bit taken aback when we stopped in 3. No matter.

As it turned out partner only took 9 tricks. Game should be on, on those cards, but he was under no pressure .

The well-informed opponent said I should have bid 2♣, whatever. I suppose she's right. Still, it's very unusual to have a full-blown argument at our nice friendly U3A. Shook me a bit....

3♣ is GF unless you have agreement that it isn't, so you shouldn't stop in 3♠ (how do you bid a 21 count with 6 clubs and 3 spades ?). Game is on double dummy, but given that you don't know which way to take the club finesse, I wouldn't say it should be made.

[helene_t]

You bid just fine.

P shouldn't rebid such a ratty heart suit. 3♦ is a better rebid. After jump shifts we are not looking for fits in other suits so bidding a new suit shows honour strength, it is not about length.

[billw55]

3♣ might not be the very best bid, but it is good enough in the situation.

Partner's final pass is woefully uninformed. Oddly, he knew enough to open the hand. I would expect someone who does not recognize 3♣ as a game force would also be all zomg only 11 points pass !!!

The opponent's rant is both rude in principle and wrong on facts.

[eagles123]

I don't particularly like 3c but partner should never pass a game force bid like that and your opps should shut up and mind their own business.

[msjennifer]

The rich looking 14 HCP are deceptive points. The 2 queens are only semi supporting on their own.One of them may be useless.Since I want partner to describe his hand comfortably( since playing Standard he may have a stronger hand),a temporising 2C bid is what I will bid.(If My hand did not possess the queens I would certainly have thought about bidding 2 NT.).

[GrahamJson]

This looks like a textbook delayed game raise to me. I would bid 2C even if other gadgets were available as 2C followed by 4S seems to describe the hand perfectly; game values with good clubs and four card spade support.

[fromageGB]

billw55, on 2016-November-04, 12:41, said:

The opponent's rant is both rude in principle and wrong on facts.

Well ... I think the counterargument is that at a "nice friendly" club that we are informed is the U3A, it is quite normal to encourage and offer advice to less experienced players. Wrong in degree rather than principle if it became an "ear-bashing", but there again I have seen my partner make a mild helpful suggestion to an opponent who, obviously upset at going wrong, turned on him.

[helene_t]

fromageGB, on 2016-November-05, 03:52, said:

Well ... I think the counterargument is that at a "nice friendly" club that we are informed is the U3A, it is quite normal to encourage and offer advice to less experienced players. Wrong in degree rather than principle if it became an "ear-bashing", but there again I have seen my partner make a mild helpful suggestion to an opponent who, obviously upset at going wrong, turned on him.

Probably better, as an experienced player, to wait for the newbies to take the initiative by asking questions and if they don't ask, don't teach.

At my club we have a lot of players who are otherwise reasonable intermediates but whose hand evaluation has been completely destroyed by the LTC epidemic. One of them held
Axx
AQxx
Axxx
Ax
and opened 1♥. When her partner raised to 2♥ she passed because she had 6 losers. I told her that the problem with LTC is that an ace is counted as equal to one queen while in fact it is worth three queens for trump contracts. She smiled politely but from their continued discussion it was clear that she hadn't listened to what I said.

That was an exception, usually I don't give unsolicited advice. It has happened a few times that people have given signs of appreciating unsolicited advice, but as a general rule, if they don't solicit advice, I think it is best to respect their choice and don't offer it.

[nekthen]

It's an interesting discussion.
First seriously recommend Jacoby 2N, I play it as at least a good raise to 3, but GF is OK too. This means that any delayed support shows 3 card support.
Lacking that tool I would choose 2C, the main advantage, is that you let your partner bid out his hand naturally. He will bid 2H and you will happily bid 4S knowing that your are highly unlikely to be missing a slam.
Partner's choice of bid over 3C is tricky. Expecting a better hand opposite me, I would put on the brakes with an immediate 3N. Partner can correct if required but most hands with a solid club suit will score better in 3N than 5C