[gfroeli]

I would suggest instead of a 1D opener I would open 3D to show length and pts/

[m1cha]

helene_t, on 2016-September-15, 06:10, said:

We don't usually make fake jump shifts on 3-card suits (in case we found the West hand a tad strong for 3♦).

Who, if anyone, should have done more? Should opener use the optional minorwood? I suppose you could say that if this hand doesn't qualify then we might as well scrap that convention? Or should responder have moved over 3NT?

Why hasn't anyone suggested opening 2♣ yet? Okay, it may be an overbid but for me it is less an overbid than 1♦ ... 3♦ is an underbid. My preference would be 1♦ ... 3♣ though. Even if you don't usually do it (I don't either), what can go wrong with this hand?

[m1cha]

helene_t, on 2016-September-15, 06:10, said:

Matchpoints, intermediate-advanced field

---

Another thought. 3♦ denies 4-card ♥ because otherwise one would rebid 2♥. So 3♥ should show a stop, not necessarily a four-card suit, I feel. And then it's matchpoints. After the second round of bidding you more or less have to decide if you want to play a slam or not. Because if you want to play a slam, you want to play it in ♦; while if not, you want to play 3NT. So may be 3NT is not such a bad guess at all? Even if it fails here ...

[GrahamJson]

This is very tricky. Change west's small club to a small heart and 3NT is where you want to be.

One way around this, which I have played in the past and which worked well, is to play a jump rebid of three of a minor as forcing. You then use an opening of 3C and 3D to show hands where you would have bid a non forcing jump rebid (similar to the opening 3C bid in Precision or Blue Club). Opening 2NT shows a minor suit pre-empt and a balanced 20-22 by a multi.

Using this structure west rebids 3D, east bids 4D then it should be easy to bid six via a couple of cue bids. If west did have two small hearts the lack of control in the suit should come to light and you will stop in 5D. Ok, playing MPs you would prefer to have stopped in 3NT but 5D should not be a disaster if others are going off in six.

Another option is to use the multi and include an Acol two minor suit hand as one of the strong options.

[nullve]

Caitlynne, on 2016-September-16, 06:57, said:

One of the many constructive sequence weaknesses in standard is opener's jump rebid repeating his/her minor suit as this can obscure 3 card support for responder's major. So the new suit force of 3H is not made so much to explore for a fit (that cannot be present after opener's rebid), but rather to either check on 3 card support for responder's major or explore for NT.

Agree.

Standard, I hope:

1♦-1♠; 3♦-?:

(...)
3♠ = 6+ S, GF
3N = to play
(...)

which leaves

3♥: what Responder has to bid with precisely 5 S and GF values whether he has a heart stopper or not.

Phil, on 2016-September-16, 15:31, said:

West is just a bit too heavy for 3D. I'd say the new school dictates the call a stiff and a very good suit.

1D 1S
3C 3H
3N 4D

Looks like the right start to me.

I strongly disagree with 3N. Again, and as mentioned in the other thread, I expect standard to be

1♦-1♠; 3♣-?:

3♦ = D support (not ideal, but standard)
3♥: what Responder has to bid with 5 S whether he has a heart stopper or not
3♠ = 6+ S
3N = to play (unless...)
(...)

So a better start would either be

1♦-1♠
3♣-3♥
3♠-4♦.

if 3♠ can be as few as 2 without a heart stopper, or

1♦-1♠
3♣-3♥
4♦,

if Opener thinks he can rule out 3N after 3♥.

Of course, by now we should all realise that "standard" doesn't really exist and switch to conventional rebids over 1♦-1♠.

[Cyberyeti]

nullve, on 2016-September-17, 04:29, said:

Agree.

Standard, I hope:

1♦-1♠; 3♦-?:

(...)
3♠ = 6+ S, GF
3N = to play
(...)

which leaves

3♥: what Responder has to bid with precisely 5 S and GF values whether he has a heart stopper or not.

What does responder do 5-5 in the majors ? given most people don't play a system bid over 1♦ for this, and how do you tell this apart.

[nullve]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-September-17, 04:46, said:

What does responder do 5-5 in the majors ? given most people don't play a system bid over 1♦ for this, and how do you tell this apart.

3♥ over 3♦, and then if Opener rebids 3♠ or 3N, maybe

(...)
4♣ = catchall, slammish
...4♦ = 2-S7+D
......4♥ = 5+ H, slammish
......(...)
...4♥ = 2-S3H
...(...)
4♦ = D support, slammish
4♥ = 5+ H, NF
(...).

If "standard" extends to the fourth round of bidding, that is. (I think not.)

[Cyberyeti]

nullve, on 2016-September-17, 05:34, said:

3♥ over 3♦, and then if Opener rebids 3♠ or 3N, maybe

(...)
4♣ = catchall, slammish
...4♦ = 2-S7+D
......4♥ = 5+ H, slammish
......(...)
...4♥ = 2-S3H
...(...)
4♦ = D support, slammish
4♥ = 5+ H, NF
(...).

If "standard" extends to the fourth round of bidding, that is. (I think not.)

This is great until partner bids 3N and it's the last making spot

[SteveMoe]

jogs, on 2016-September-15, 08:10, said:

On MSC these hands always seem to start:
1♦ - 1♠
3♣ - 3♦

Then it's off to the races.

THIS!
The races:
3♠ - 4♦
4♠(0-3) - 5♣(♦Q?)
5N(Yes and ♣K) - 6♦

Bidding less than 3♣ at our 2nd turn is a gross underbid with this 4-loser.

[jogs]

nullve, on 2016-September-17, 04:29, said:

1♦-1♠; 3♣-?:

3♦ = D support (not ideal, but standard)
3♥: what Responder has to bid with 5 S whether he has a heart stopper or not
3♠ = 6+ S
3N = to play (unless...)
(...)

So a better start would either be

1♦-1♠
3♣-3♥
3♠-4♦.

if 3♠ can be as few as 2 without a heart stopper, or

1♦-1♠
3♣-3♥
4♦,

if Opener thinks he can rule out 3N after 3♥.

Of course, by now we should all realise that "standard" doesn't really exist and switch to conventional rebids over 1♦-1♠.

Not 3♥. When 3 suits are shown, the chances of the 4th suit being the best strain is remote.

1♦-1♠
3♣-3♦

AJ in support is much better than xxx. Also holding the AJ increases the odds of pd's diamonds being 6 long.

1♦-1♠
3♣-3♦
3♠

This strongly implies a singleton heart. Also implies 3=1=5=4. Can't have everything. With indifferent spades responder must not insists on spades as trumps.

[jallerton]

Phil, on 2016-September-16, 15:31, said:

West is just a bit too heavy for 3D. I'd say the new school dictates the call a stiff and a very good suit.

1D 1S
3C 3H
3N 4D

Looks like the right start to me.

I don't understand why you think Opener would bid 3NT. Isn't 3♥ 4th suit forcing? Over 3♥, Opener should bid 4♦ to show additional length in the suit.

[helene_t]

jallerton, on 2016-September-19, 12:29, said:

I don't understand why you think Opener would bid 3NT. Isn't 3♥ 4th suit forcing?

I think 3♥ should be 5-5 majors (although it is probably better to swap it with 3♠ so 3♥ shows 6+ spades while 3♠ shows 5-5 majors). I suppose it has some merits to play it as a club raise.

[jogs]

jallerton, on 2016-September-19, 12:29, said:

I don't understand why you think Opener would bid 3NT. Isn't 3♥ 4th suit forcing?

NO. 1♦-1♠, 3♣. That's already forcing to game by momentum. Opener cannot have 4 hearts. With 0=4=5=4, opener would rebid 2♥ before jumping in clubs. Because of the poor fit in spades, opener may even choose an underbid of 2♣. Even with 1=3=5=4, opener would be reluctant to jump in clubs.

After thinking about this board for two weeks, I have concluded slam can only be reached if West decides to push it. East will not know West has 10 cards in the minors. East must co-operate by showing diamond support immediately. The auction must start 1♦-1♠, 3♣-3♦. Any other start would require one partner overbidding to reach slam.

[jallerton]

helene_t, on 2016-September-19, 12:34, said:

I think 3♥ should be 5-5 majors (although it is probably better to swap it with 3♠ so 3♥ shows 6+ spades while 3♠ shows 5-5 majors). I suppose it has some merits to play it as a club raise.

The problem with using 3♥ for such a specific shape (whether or not you swap it with 3♠) is that you render a whole lot of ordinary hands unsure of the correct strain difficult to bid. The "preference" to 3♦ will have to cover a wide range of hands; those with decent support (not suitable for jump preference to 4♦) plus lot of hands with a doubleton; maybe seriously false preference if 5=4=1=3 not suitable for 3NT. Yes, 3♦ is cheap, bur there's a lot to untangle on the next round.

jogs said:

NO. 1♦-1♠, 3♣. That's already forcing to game by momentum. Opener cannot have 4 hearts. With 0=4=5=4, opener would rebid 2♥ before jumping in clubs. Because of the poor fit in spades, opener may even choose an underbid of 2♣. Even with 1=3=5=4, opener would be reluctant to jump in clubs.

Indeed. Hence the chance that we belong in the 4th suit is relatively low.