[Liversidge]

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Partner has reversed, so I have to bid. If I understand correctly I have to bid 3♣?

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Here I presume I have to bid 3♦?

I don't feel comfortable with either situation. We could be in a part contract in a minor with a 7 card fit and 23 HCP.

[akwoo]

I would think in both cases, you would bid 2N, which is the weakest bid after partner reverses. It is non-forcing, unless you're playing Lebensohl. (In that case, it is a weakness signal, so you'd still bid that.)

[Liversidge]

akwoo, on 2016-September-03, 07:06, said:

I would think in both cases, you would bid 2N, which is the weakest bid after partner reverses. It is non-forcing, unless you're playing Lebensohl. (In that case, it is a weakness signal, so you'd still bid that.)

Thanks.Didn't know that. I assumed that 2NT showed 10-12 HCP. So after a reverse it can be made with 6+ HCP hand.

[Liversidge]

akwoo, on 2016-September-03, 07:06, said:

I would think in both cases, you would bid 2N, which is the weakest bid after partner reverses. It is non-forcing, unless you're playing Lebensohl. (In that case, it is a weakness signal, so you'd still bid that.)

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I presume that would still be the case if I didn't have a stop in the unbid suit, as here?

[helene_t]

Liversidge, on 2016-September-03, 07:11, said:

Thanks.Didn't know that. I assumed that 2NT showed 10-12 HCP. So after a reverse it can be made with 6+ HCP hand.

2nt shows that you have the combined values for 2nt, i.e. about 22/23 points. So when partner has promised 11/12, your 2nt bid shows about 11. If partner has shown 16+, your 2nt bid shows 6/7.

Not 6+ but 6/7 since it is nonforcing. So with more, you bit the 4th suit or you bid 3nt.

[Liversidge]

helene_t, on 2016-September-03, 07:55, said:

2nt shows that you have the combined values for 2nt, i.e. about 22/23 points. So when partner has promised 11/12, your 2nt bid shows about 11. If partner has shown 16+, your 2nt bid shows 6/7.

Not 6+ but 6/7 since it is nonforcing. So with more, you bit the 4th suit or you bid 3nt.

Thanks again. Why don't authors cover this when writing about reverses. I have four Acol references and none have picked this up.

[Liversidge]

I have just found a post from Mikeh in 2015 responding I guess to a question very similar to mine, though not on the same thread so I can't be sure. Is this what Helene is suggesting?

mikeh, on 2007-March-01, 17:31, said:

So years ago, some bright player or two (most inventions are invented several times) hit upon a lebensohl-like approach: use 2N as an artificial bid, usually connoting weakness... this allows all 3 level bids to be game force and natural.

2N asks opener to bid 3♣ unless opener can't stand the thought of playing 3♣. So with Qxxx Jx x QJxxxx, I respond 1♠ to partner's 1♦ and feel ill when partner bids 2♥. I can't pass, and I wouldn't want to because the opps probably have more trump than we do. So I bid the artificial 2N, hoping to hear 3♣ which I will pass.

If I am opener with x AKxx AKJxx Axx, I am delighted to bid 3♣.

If I am opener with Ax AQJx AQJxxx x, I refuse to bid 3♣: I bid 3♦.

[MrAce]

Liversidge, on 2016-September-03, 10:02, said:

I have just found a post from Mikeh in 2015 responding I guess to a question very similar to mine, though not on the same thread so I can't be sure. Is this what Helene is suggesting?

http://www.bridgebas...everse-bidding/

[Kaitlyn S]

Liversidge, on 2016-September-03, 07:11, said:

Thanks.Didn't know that. I assumed that 2NT showed 10-12 HCP. So after a reverse it can be made with 6+ HCP hand.

Think of it this way. The reason 2NT shows 11-12ish when partner could be minimum is that two minimum hands want to try to stay below 2NT (unless they have a fit and the opponents push them.) Note that 2NT isn't forcing.

Over the reverse, 2NT isn't forcing either. What does your partner have? You don't need very much to have enough for game. If you bid 2NT non-forcing, you are saying you don't have enough to make game opposite a minimum reverse.

[Kaitlyn S]

duplicate post

[Stephen Tu]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-September-03, 20:09, said:

Think of it this way. The reason 2NT shows 11-12ish when partner could be minimum is that two minimum hands want to try to stay below 2NT (unless they have a fit and the opponents push them.) Note that 2NT isn't forcing.

Over the reverse, 2NT isn't forcing either. What does your partner have? You don't need very much to have enough for game. If you bid 2NT non-forcing, you are saying you don't have enough to make game opposite a minimum reverse.

The vast majority of good players play 2nt as forcing, looking for signoff in one of opener's suits.
It's split into two main camps:
1. Bridge World Standard style -- cheapest call of 4th suit (at 2 level) or 2nt is forcing, but normally weak. Opener usually rebids 1st suit with non-GF reverse. If 2-level 4th suit was available, 4th suit = weak, only 4 cds in major response, 2nt = natural forcing. After the weakness signal, can pass opener's minimum rebids. So on this style, on your first example conceivably the auction would often continue 1c-1h-2d-2s!-2nt which you could pass, or 3c if opener had 6c and you could comfortably pass that.
2. Lebensohl/Ingberman style -- 2nt is always the potential weakness signal.
There are also some split if after 1m-1M-2R-2M whether responder's rebid of major is forcing or not, most play as forcing 5+M.
And after weakness 2nt, there is also some split between always rebid 3c even if opener's first suit is diamonds (to cater to responder weak long clubs 4M), vs. reserving 4th suit for say GF hand looking for stopper 4th suit. Arguably one could play 1d-1s-2h-3c as the weak 4-6 long club hand NF if playing everything else forcing.

Why people play 2nt as F1:
- It allow distinguish between show fit for partner with good hand, forcing (9/10+), vs. weaker hand trying to play partial. If the direct preference wasn't forcing, showing the fit after 4th suit would often entail bypassing 3nt which can be problematic.
- 2nt nf is aiming for a very narrow target where only 2nt makes exactly 2 but 3 of opener's minor goes down. Opener will often have 6 cd opening suit, and even if 5-2 sometimes the suit contract plays better. It just doesn't come up often enough where 2nt is last and only making contract to give up the other advantages of having lots of forcing calls available.
- Now you don't have to jump 3nt with wide range, easier to bid after 1c-1s-2h-3nt if 3nt has reasonably narrow range, and can do something like 3nt=12-14, 2nt then 3nt =8-11, and with 15+ you can bid 2nt to start without any fit for partner's suits then 4nt/6nt/more/other as appropriate.

[wank]

the post by mikeh is good if you want to play more complex methods. if you're playing basic natural methods, 2NT is weak, non-forcing and mis-fitting.

[rmnka447]

With all the example hands, you make the weakest bid available whatever your agreement is with your partner that should be.

Years ago, it was normal to preference back to the reverser's first suit with a weak hand. But normally that pushes your side up to the 3 level. So, it's been normal for a long time now to use some mechanism to keep the bidding lower when showing a weak hand and use the return to reverser's first suit as a fit showing positive. Stephen Tu has done a good job enumerating those methods.

The changes were made to free up bidding space for the reverser to further describe his/her hand when responder has a weak hand. It also made it easier to show a fit for reverser's 1st suit and also save some bidding space for exploring for the right contract..