[Manastorm]

No trump range can be hard to explain completely that's why people use common phrases like 14-16, 13+ - 16 and so on. Some think that you can use equivalently 2 different ranges: for example 13+ -16 for 14-16, if you upgrade frequently. If that is really the case, can you then disclose which ever you wish when asked to your benefit? Give lower range when you wish your opponents bid and higher range when you don't. Maybe your opponents defense varies depending on your range and you wish they use a certain method over another depending on your hand.

[The_Badger]

hi Manastorm,

If you keep it simple and say 1NT is 13-16 range, then there should be no problem. Many players using the 15-17 NT will downgrade a lacklustre 18 HCP 4-3-3-3 hand to bid 1NT, and will upgrade a 14 HCP hand with a strong suit and good intermediates. Good bridge players accept alternative hand evaluations: that's why I frequently quote the Kaplan and Rubens Hand Evaluator in replies.

Having two different NT ranges, let's say due to vulnerability or in different bidding positions, is not against the law if disclosed, but having a private understanding within a partnership is.

[Manastorm]

I mean one range, but two equivalent representations.

[Stefan_O]

Manastorm, on 2016-September-17, 06:16, said:

"2 different ranges: for example 13+ -16 for 14-16"

Manastorm, on 2016-September-17, 06:16, said:

I mean one range, but two equivalent representations.

OK, I think you need to explain more, what you mean exactly...

You say "2 different ranges", then "one range"... Hard to follow...

But if you open a "good 13" but not "bad 13" with 1NT, and declare so, what is the issue?
If you regularly open with "good 13", then 14-16 is not a correct description, of course.

Manastorm, on 2016-September-17, 06:16, said:

"Give lower range when you wish your opponents bid and higher range when you don't."

That would be clearly unethical, of course.
In addition, it will also tell your partner something about your hand, depending on which description you choose = unauthorized information.

Declaring
13+ - 16
seems clear to me.

[Manastorm]

I mean two equivalent ranges, which you can disclose in two ways. 13+ -16 or 14-16 add upgrade lot, could be light, use judgement etc. If both ways are a legitimate way disclose of your methods, can you decide which you use at the moment you are asked. The point is not to send a message to your partner, but to control your opponents methods. If you are asked several times during a session, can you vary your answer between the equivalent versions.

[manudude03]

I've always felt there was a subtle difference between the 2 annotations. 14-16 is a hand that you think is worth between 14 and 16 points inclusive, while 13+-16 is any hand you think is worth 14 to 16 points plus 13 counts with more good features than bad ones. So a hand like AJTx AJTx KTx xx would be in the 13+-16 range, but not the 14-16 range.

[sfi]

Manastorm, on 2016-September-17, 05:52, said:

can you then disclose which ever you wish when asked to your benefit?

Of course not - your best option is to explain precisely the same way every time.

If you don't, you leave yourself open to the suspicion or accusation of using this opportunity to pass information to partner, which is illegal. And this would be exactly what you are doing if you started doing that - telling partner you want the opponents to bid when you explain it one way and that you don't want them to when you explain it another way.

If you have started doing this, I would suggest stopping it immediately, before you earn a reputation for cheating.

[Stefan_O]

Manastorm, on 2016-September-18, 04:26, said:

If both ways are a legitimate way disclose of your methods

Who says "both are legitimate"?

As I said, if you regularly open 1NT with 13-good, of course, you should declare it, not give opponents a false story.

If you do it intentionally, it's deliberate cheating.

[barmar]

manudude03, on 2016-September-18, 04:26, said:

I've always felt there was a subtle difference between the 2 annotations. 14-16 is a hand that you think is worth between 14 and 16 points inclusive, while 13+-16 is any hand you think is worth 14 to 16 points plus 13 counts with more good features than bad ones. So a hand like AJTx AJTx KTx xx would be in the 13+-16 range, but not the 14-16 range.

But isn't the reason you consider a hand with 13 HCP to be "worth between 14 and 16" because it has more good features than bad ones?

[manudude03]

barmar, on 2016-September-18, 13:06, said:

But isn't the reason you consider a hand with 13 HCP to be "worth between 14 and 16" because it has more good features than bad ones?

There is a limit. Maybe it is better explained as more good features than bad ones, but not so good as to not be in the same HCP group. AJTx AJxx KTx xx is a very good 13 (14.2 knr), but doesn't compare to something like AJT KT9 T9 AJT9x (15.7 knr)

[barmar]

I think this really points out the problem: there's often no way to precisely describe your criteria for upgrading and downgrading. I expect that most players do it on gut instinct -- a hand with several 10's and 9's supporting the honors, or a long suit, or mostly aces and kings "looks better" than its HCP, while a 4333 hand looks worse. We learn all these ways to evaluate hand quality, but it's not easy to quantify them. When a hand has good and bad features, quantifying their relative merit is difficult.

[helene_t]

I think the main points of disclosure of notrump ranges are twofold:

1) opps need to know if their weak nt defense (dbl=penalty) applies or not
2) opps need to be able to place honours during play

For 1) it doesn't matter so much if there is a small bias i.e. if you upgrade slightly more (or less) often than opps think on the basis of your explanation. However, it is important that your explanation is not murky. Situations in which one opp interpret your explanation as 14-16 and the other as 13-16 is not acceptable.

For 2) you need to give opps a reasonable idea about how often you upgrade. If you say 14-16 they will probably assume 14-16 walrus points when placing honours. They will be aware that potential upgrades makes the inference a bit unreliable, but if you upgrade very often without having disclosed it, it is not acceptable.