[Trick13]

I have bid Precision for decades. When a new partner agreed to try to switch to Precision, which he had never played, my first priority was simplicity (big fail there), but some of my choices resulted in an unexpected and unintended improvement to the 1D opener.

(1) Weak NT throughout, 11-13. Actually 10-14 in 3rd and 12-14 in 4th. This is not a post about NT ranges, but if I were designing a new system from scratch, this is the first thing I would write down. Probably I would write 10-12.

(2) Put all 4441s into NT. Not available in all jurisdictions. The 4441 is so infrequent it cannot be right to allocate it a bid of it's own. You might imagine playing in a lot of 5-1 fits but it almost never happens. In fact the worst thing that can happen is that partner transfers into your 4-card major AND you don't have a super accept that shows a singleton. We do now.

(3) Put all the other junk into NT: 5m332, semi-balanced with weak suits. I think of 1NT as a pre-empt. Every time I open it, especially when I have upgraded from 10 HCP, I get the tingle of anticipation of a good board. When you get to my age, a little tingle is important.

So at this point we have 1D being a 14-16 NT or a good 5+D unbalanced.

(4) This didn't happen at the outset but we moved all the Precision 2C openers into 1D. This freed up 2C for something else that we really like, and was easily incorporated into the 1D response structure.

So 1D is now 14-16 NT (about 60%) or 11-15 with a good 5+m unbalanced (20% each minor). It is our most frequent opener at over 13%. It is more nebulous to start with, but becomes better defined after the rebid, and the rebid is usually easy.

Responses may make a difference. 1D is not forcing but the only hands that you might want to pass would be 0-6 HCP with 5=D. Our responses start at 0 HCP; we play transfer responses, perhaps that helps. But natural responses would be fine.

How the bid works in competition is just as important. In reality, you get to rebid 1NT a lot more than you would expect. However, when we open 1D with a minor suit we guarantee to rebid 3m if the opponents compete to the 2-level and partner has bid (even if it is 0+); pass would show the NT hand, X would say that they have bid our suit. If you really don't fancy rebidding 3m, open an off-shape 1NT instead - if they double, you can self-escape.

With the usual 1D (which includes 11-13 NT) you will be passing in competition almost always whereas I will have opened 1NT with that hand, I'll be competing more often after I open 1D, and it will be riskier for the opponents to compete as I'm stronger. What am I missing here?

[Phil]

I have to open 1D on 4405?

[Trick13]

 Phil, on 2016-August-27, 20:57, said:

I have to open 1D on 4405?

Yes. Surely better than 2C or 2D?

[Phil]

 Trick13, on 2016-August-27, 21:34, said:

Yes. Surely better than 2C or 2D?

Better than 2C. Not better than a precision 2D.

[spotlight7]

I have bid Precision for decades. When a new partner agreed to try to switch to Precision, which he had never played, my first priority was simplicity (big fail there), but some of my choices resulted in an unexpected and unintended improvement to the 1D opener.


Precision has evolved since I played it in the 70s. You can play whatever

you prefer, however, what advantage do you gain by your changes?


(1) Weak NT throughout, 11-13. Actually 10-14 in 3rd and 12-14 in 4th. This is not a post about NT ranges, but if I were designing a new system from scratch, this is the first thing I would write down. Probably I would write 10-12.


Most modern Precision players use 14-16 for 1NT. This solves some problems such as 1C*-? with a bal. 8HCP are we

GF? With 1NT 14-16, your 1C* now shows 17+ if bal. So now the balanced 8HCP hand opposite a 1C* opener is GF.


A jump rebid to 2NT with a bal. 19-21 was a glitch in original Precision.

Using 1N=14-16, you bid 1C*-1D-1NT=17-19 now.


If you like Kokish type bidding, 1C*-1D-1H*-1S*-1NT=19-20NT if 1N is next bid or showing Hs

plus the suit bid if a new suit is bid. Bidding 1C-1D-1NT shows 17-18 using this style.


(2) Put all 4441s into NT. Not available in all jurisdictions. The 4441 is so infrequent it cannot be right to allocate it a bid of it's own. You might imagine playing in a lot of 5-1 fits but it almost never happens. In fact the worst thing that can happen is that partner transfers into your 4-card major AND you don't have a super accept that shows a singleton. We do now.


The 2D* opening showing 4441 4315 and 4405 with short Ds is a winner IMHO. Putting all

4441s into 1NT creates problems where they did not exist prior to making that choice.

It also cannot legally be played in ACBL events.


Partner transfers into your singleton and you now bid higher to show a max. in addition to the known misfit?

You would not have had the 5-1 fit 'if' you did not open 1NT with all 4441s. You are now forcing the bidding

higher 'with a known misfit' and an unknown total for partnership assets. You will survive sometimes, however,

on some hands you are now bidding even higher with known misfit hands.



(3) Put all the other junk into NT: 5m332, semi-balanced with weak suits. I think of 1NT as a pre-empt. Every time I open it, especially when I have upgraded from 10 HCP, I get the tingle of anticipation of a good board. When you get to my age, a little tingle is important.


I played many decades using KS style using a 12-14 1NT, I also

have used: 9-11, 10-12, 11-13, 12-14 and 13-15 in various systems.

They are all playable, however, they do not produce an advantage.


Meckwell played 10-12 and 9-12 mini NTs for a while and they

changed to 14-16 NV in 1st/2nd. 15-17 vul. and 3rd/4th seats.


So at this point we have 1D being a 14-16 NT or a good 5+D unbalanced.

(4) This didn't happen at the outset but we moved all the Precision 2C openers into 1D. This freed up 2C for something else that we really like, and was easily incorporated into the 1D response structure.


The Precision 2C bid works very well. With good follow up bidding, it wins MPs/IMPs.


It also has preemptive effect on the other pair. Most modern Precision players

use 2C as a 6+ suit. Partner may raise to further the preemptive effect.


So 1D is now 14-16 NT (about 60%) or 11-15 with a good 5+m unbalanced (20% each minor). It is our most frequent opener at over 13%. It is more nebulous to start with, but becomes better defined after the rebid, and the rebid is usually easy.


Most players today 'bid on the smell of an oil rag. You might open 1D only to see a 1M overcall and a 3M raise. Your

1D opening does not have an easy rebid after that start. Even a 1M overcall and a 2M raise takes away your bidding room.

How does partner 'know' that you have say 14-16 bal. hand vs a 5 card minor after 1D-(1M)-p-(3M)



Responses may make a difference. 1D is not forcing but the only hands that you might want to pass would be 0-6 HCP with 5=D. Our responses start at 0 HCP; we play transfer responses, perhaps that helps. But natural responses would be fine.

How the bid works in competition is just as important. In reality, you get to rebid 1NT a lot more than you would expect. However, when we open 1D with a minor suit we guarantee to rebid 3m if the opponents compete to the 2-level and partner has bid (even if it is 0+); pass would show the NT hand, X would say that they have bid our suit. If you really don't fancy rebidding 3m, open an off-shape 1NT instead - if they double, you can self-escape.


Rebidding 3m after the other side bids to 2M with a 5

card suit is not a great idea. Even some shaky 6 card

suits will have problems playing at the three level.


Since you respond with 0+HCP, your 'guarantee to rebid 3m'

will not end well opposite a fair number of unsuitable hands.


With the usual 1D (which includes 11-13 NT) you will be passing in competition almost always whereas I will have opened 1NT with that hand, I'll be competing more often after I open 1D, and it will be riskier for the opponents to compete as I'm stronger. What am I missing here?


You will be stronger when you compete 'when' you held a 14-16 NT hand. Your hand did not get

stronger because you held a 5 card minor and you 'guarantee to rebid 3m' with a five card suit.

Your 1D opening could hold a 6 card minor and @11+HCP and partner does not have a clue after

1D-(1M)-p-(3M) Partner is also left in the dark after 1D-(1M) catches a 2M raise.

Your 3m rebid might be 11+ 6+ minor or a 'stronger' version with a 5 card suit.


I claim to have played almost everything. Forcing Pass, Canapé, Big Diamond and an assortment of others.

They were all fun to play. Some had problem areas, some had advantages.


You made the Nebulous 1D opening even more Nebulous and you now claim to have solved the problems.

[Trick13]

 Phil, on 2016-August-27, 21:35, said:

Better than 2C. Not better than a precision 2D.

Yes precision 2D is good when it comes up (but just 0.6% of deals if your include (43)-1-5)

[Trick13]

 spotlight7, on 2016-August-27, 22:25, said:

Precision has evolved since I played it in the 70s. You can play whatever
you prefer, however, what advantage do you gain by your changes?
...

You make good points.

>> Most modern Precision players use 14-16 for 1NT. This solves some problems such as 1C*-? with a bal. 8HCP are we GF..
>> A jump rebid to 2NT with a bal. 19-21 was a glitch in original Precision.
>> If you like Kokish type bidding, 1C*-1D-1H*-1S*-1NT=19-20NT if 1N is next bid or showing Hs
>> plus the suit bid if a new suit is bid. Bidding 1C-1D-1NT shows 17-18 using this style.
Yes we do this also because the balanced 16 is in the 1D.

>> The 2D* opening showing 4441 4315 and 4405 with short Ds is a winner IMHO.
Yes but it comes up just less than 0.6% of deals.

>> Putting all 4441s into 1NT creates problems where they did not exist prior to making that choice.
I expected problems but they just don't come up. And you need to weigh the advantages as well as the costs of any system choice. In four years I have not yet played in a 5-1. Admittedly sometimes play in 3NT with 3-1 in a side suit.

>>> It also cannot legally be played in ACBL events
Not a problem of my making.


>>The Precision 2C bid works very well. With good follow up bidding, it wins MPs/IMPs.
>>It also has preemptive effect on the other pair. Most modern Precision players use 2C as a 6+ suit. Partner may raise to further the preemptive effect.
I was happy enough with the Precision 2C. Also defined it as 6+C. I know a lot of people hate it. Our experience was mixed - you also preempt yourself. But we replaced it with something definitely better.



>> How does partner 'know' that you have say 14-16 bal. hand vs a 5 card minor after 1D-(1M)-p-(3M)
High level preempts cause a problem for any system. On the sequence given it wouldn't matter. Partner passed - he has nothing. Let's say it went 1D (1S) X (2S) - here pass shows 14-16 because you will bid 3m with a minor. After 1D (1S) X (3S) you would normally pass. Partner still has a bid, he isn't too badly placed because, as I tried to point out, you either have 14-16 NT or a hand with good playing strength. Would he be better placed if you were known to be 11-13 balanced or 11-15 with a 4+D- 1444 or maybe 1264?

>> Rebidding 3m after the other side bids to 2M with a 5 card suit is not a great idea. Even some shaky 6 card suits will have problems playing at the three level
>> will not end well opposite a fair number of unsuitable hands.
The really unsuitable and shaky 6m might have opened 1NT. Sometimes we do open 1D fervently hoping we aren't forced to the 3-level. If we are we won't get doubled. Maybe this is where responses matter. With a weak hand and a suit of his own partner can transfer to it and play there, so he will virtually always have support.

>>You made the Nebulous 1D opening even more Nebulous
Yes but the rebid defines it because if it has a minor it is a good hand with good playing strength.


>> Your 3m rebid might be 11+ 6+ minor or a 'stronger' version with a 5 card suit.
That's true. When you are 5-4 you might be able to bid your 4M at the 2-level, and partner can relay for your minor. 5-4 in the minors is the least desirable holding.

>> ...and you now claim to have solved the problems.
Sorry. Implied Smiley after the SOLVED

[straube]

How do you show both minors? What's your rebid with x Ax Axxxx KJxxx or x Axxx xxxxx AKJ after a 1D-1S start?

How do you deal with 4441s of 15-16 hcps?

I don't think you can give up 2C as a constructive opening (excepting a Silent Club structure) and it's also difficult to give up 2D as a constructive opening.

[The_Badger]

I played Precision for years, first Wei, then the Blue Team variations, then the Sontag version, then...

Ah Precision...what has it become? A real hotchpotch of juggled bids that resemble nothing like the original system

I admit Wei Precision had its faults, nothing major mind you as all bids were clearly defined, but it was easy for beginners to learn and understand. And that's important in bridge I feel.

I can understand players tinkering with systems but wholesale rape (for want of a better word) is anathema, I feel. Why keep on calling it 'Precision': just because you open 1♣ with 16+ points?

[This is just a personal view, and players can use what systems and conventions they like, but I don't believe any other major bidding system has undergone so many changes in its lifetime.]

[Trick13]

 straube, on 2016-August-28, 00:41, said:

How do you show both minors? What's your rebid with x Ax Axxxx KJxxx or x Axxx xxxxx AKJ after a 1D-1S start?

How do you deal with 4441s of 15-16 hcps?

I don't think you can give up 2C as a constructive opening (excepting a Silent Club structure) and it's also difficult to give up 2D as a constructive opening.

x Ax Axxxx KJxxx. 2D. If a tad stronger, 2NT.

x Axxx xxxxx AKJ. I'm opening this 1NT.

How do you deal with 4441s of 15-16 hcps? Rebid 1NT

[Trick13]

 The_Badger, on 2016-August-28, 02:21, said:

I played Precision for years, first Wei, then the Blue Team variations, then the Sontag version, then...

Ah Precision...what has it become? A real hotchpotch of juggled bids that resemble nothing like the original system

I admit Wei Precision had its faults, nothing major mind you as all bids were clearly defined, but it was easy for beginners to learn and understand. And that's important in bridge I feel.

I can understand players tinkering with systems but wholesale rape (for want of a better word) is anathema, I feel. Why keep on calling it 'Precision': just because you open 1♣ with 16+ points?

[This is just a personal view, and players can use what systems and conventions they like, but I don't believe any other major bidding system has undergone so many changes in its lifetime.]

Is it Ok if I call it S & M Strong Club then?

[1eyedjack]

The original precision 2D showing 3-suited short D was born out of a desire for the 1D opener to promise some semblance of a natural D suit.

With the effluxion of time we have recognised the benefits of relaxing the 1D opener, so as (for example) to include all balanced hands in a particular range, with potentially as few as 2D. Once you have shed the shackles of responder expecting something in Diamonds for the 1D opener, it is but a small step to reducing the minimum requirement to a singleton, or even a void.

That done, the only incentive to retaining the original precision meaning for 2D is because it has some magical intrinsic benefit when it arises, independent of its original reason for taking pressure off other bids.

There are any number of possible uses that you could put the 2D opener to that would have at least as much benefit when they arise, as the benefits of a by now rather arbitrary 3-suited short D definition.

[The_Badger]

 Trick13, on 2016-August-28, 02:48, said:

Is it Ok if I call it S & M Strong Club then?

Ah...I see someone else has read Terence Reese and Jeremy Flint's novel lol!

[kenrexford]

I prefer my minor structure.

2C = 4441/5440; 2D asks more
2D = minors

1D then weak balanced or either minor, never both. 1D...2C just clubs.

[spotlight7]

You make good points.

>> Most modern Precision players use 14-16 for 1NT. This solves some problems such as 1C*-? with a bal. 8HCP are we GF..
>> A jump rebid to 2NT with a bal. 19-21 was a glitch in original Precision.
>> If you like Kokish type bidding, 1C*-1D-1H*-1S*-1NT=19-20NT if 1N is next bid or showing Hs
>> plus the suit bid if a new suit is bid. Bidding 1C-1D-1NT shows 17-18 using this style.
Yes we do this also because the balanced 16 is in the 1D.


Using 1D as 14-16 bal. solves some of the problems of a 13-15NT. You now

often break even with modern Precision players using 14-16 1NT openings.


>> The 2D* opening showing 4441 4315 and 4405 with short Ds is a winner IMHO.
Yes but it comes up just less than 0.6% of deals.


I am too lazy to check your figure of .6% of deals here for a 2D opening.

It does not come up frequently, it often does win MPs/IPOs when it comes up.


I will mention that a 1C* opening only comes up @5% of deals. Few Precision

players suggest dropping the 1C* bid because it does not come up very often.


>> Putting all 4441s into 1NT creates problems where they did not exist prior to making that choice.
I expected problems but they just don't come up. And you need to weigh the advantages as well as the costs of any system choice. In four years I have not yet played in a 5-1. Admittedly sometimes play in 3NT with 3-1 in a side suit.


Problems "just don't come up." You do not mention how many doubled penalties you gave away while 'not playing in a

5-1 fit." If your answer is that they do not happen, I am selling beach property in Arizona for very cheap prices.


>>> It also cannot legally be played in ACBL events
Not a problem of my making.


Some(many?) like to play in ACBL events. I try to avoid playing in them as much as possible.



>>The Precision 2C bid works very well. With good follow up bidding, it wins MPs/IMPs.
>>It also has preemptive effect on the other pair. Most modern Precision players use 2C as a 6+ suit. Partner may raise to further the preemptive effect.


I was happy enough with the Precision 2C. Also defined it as 6+C. I know a lot of people hate it. Our experience was mixed - you also preempt yourself. But we replaced it with something definitely better.


Meckwell seem to survive and thrive playing a 6+ 2C opening.

They also stopped playing a 10-12 mini NT to switch to 14-16/15-17 in various seats/vul.



You did not mention what you play that is "definitely better."



>> How does partner 'know' that you have say 14-16 bal. hand vs a 5 card minor after 1D-(1M)-p-(3M)
High level preempts cause a problem for any system. On the sequence given it wouldn't matter. Partner passed - he has nothing. Let's say it went 1D (1S) X (2S) - here pass shows 14-16 because you will bid 3m with a minor. After 1D (1S) X (3S) you would normally pass. Partner still has a bid, he isn't too badly placed because, as I tried to point out, you either have 14-16 NT or a hand with good playing strength. Would he be better placed if you were known to be 11-13 balanced or 11-15 with a 4+D- 1444 or maybe 1264?


You claimed to have "solved" the Nebulous 1D opening. "Would he be better placed if you

were known to be 11-13 balanced or 11-15 with other random shapes is not a "solution."


If your range was 14-16 for 1N, partner would be aware of your values to compete or to double the

other side. Your solution add additional options for the opening bid that do not solve problems.


>> Rebidding 3m after the other side bids to 2M with a 5 card suit is not a great idea. Even some shaky 6 card suits will have problems playing at the three level
>> will not end well opposite a fair number of unsuitable hands.
The really unsuitable and shaky 6m might have opened 1NT. Sometimes we do open 1D fervently hoping we aren't forced to the 3-level. If we are we won't get doubled. Maybe this is where responses matter. With a weak hand and a suit of his own partner can transfer to it and play there, so he will virtually always have support.


"If we are we won't get doubled." The prices for that beach property I offered in Arizona just doubled.


You open a multi meaning 1D* and "nothing bad ever happens when partner "with a weak hand and a suit of his own transfers to

it and you play there in a 5-1(5-0) fit? Or you run out and still nothing bad ever happens?


My partners often pass with weak balanced hands. With your promise to bid your 5 card minor at the 3 level, that will fairly

often put you in a 3 level contract in a 5-3 or "gulp" 5-2 fit. When dummy is weak, the 3 level will often be too high.


Partner never passes when weak and you also promise to bid your 5 card minor at the 3 level

in competition. These two ideas clash and that is when the Red cards start to appear.


>>You made the Nebulous 1D opening even more Nebulous
Yes but the rebid defines it because if it has a minor it is a good hand with good playing strength.


>> Your 3m rebid might be 11+ 6+ minor or a 'stronger' version with a 5 card suit.
That's true. When you are 5-4 you might be able to bid your 4M at the 2-level, and partner can relay for your minor. 5-4 in the minors is the least desirable holding.

>> ...and you now claim to have solved the problems.
[color="#1C2837"]Sorry. Implied Smiley after the SOLVED
[/quote]


Sorry, I missed the "Implied Smiley."


I was still shaking my head at the idea that "no problems occur"

after partner transfers into a 5-1 fit or that your side never

gets doubled after you rebid a 5 card minor at the 3 level

"opposite a weak hand."



Most bridge methods are playable. Playing vs good players,

some(many?) methods simply do not produce good results.


If you are happy with your results, keep using your methods.


I see a number of players claim that they are never doubled for penalty.

A smilely face does tend to appear after I read many(most?) of those claims.

Perhaps selective memory is involved.

[steve2005]

 The_Badger, on 2016-August-28, 02:21, said:

I played Precision for years, first Wei, then the Blue Team variations, then the Sontag version, then...

Ah Precision...what has it become? A real hotchpotch of juggled bids that resemble nothing like the original system

I admit Wei Precision had its faults, nothing major mind you as all bids were clearly defined, but it was easy for beginners to learn and understand. And that's important in bridge I feel.

I can understand players tinkering with systems but wholesale rape (for want of a better word) is anathema, I feel. Why keep on calling it 'Precision': just because you open 1♣ with 16+ points?

[This is just a personal view, and players can use what systems and conventions they like, but I don't believe any other major bidding system has undergone so many changes in its lifetime.]

As opposed to Standard American which is ill defined.
Hideous Hog, "but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision?"

[Phil]

 Trick13, on 2016-August-27, 22:42, said:

Yes precision 2D is good when it comes up (but just 0.6% of deals if your include (43)-1-5)

You need to make a better argument than the bids frequency - you need to a) demonstrate there's a better use for the call and that B) you aren't being hurt with partners inability to raise diamonds since opener can be very short and c)you can work out sequences like 1D 1N 2C which generally shows both minors but seems like in your method,it just shows clubs.

[fromageGB]

 Trick13, on 2016-August-27, 20:50, said:

When you get to my age, a little tingle is important.

Snap.

[PrecisionL]

"Putting all 4441s into 1NT creates problems where they did not exist prior to making that choice. It also cannot legally be played in ACBL events."

As of August 1, 2016 in ACBLand you may open 1NT with a singleton honor and no doubleton if the honor is an Ace or King or Queen.

The Precision 2♦ opening has a frequency of almost 2% of all distributions if you include 4315 and 3415 hands (assuming the standard 4=4=1=4 and 4=4=0=5 distributions).

[1eyedjack]

 PrecisionL, on 2016-August-28, 17:33, said:

"Putting all 4441s into 1NT creates problems where they did not exist prior to making that choice. It also cannot legally be played in ACBL events."

As of August 1, 2016 in ACBLand you may open 1NT with a singleton honor and no doubleton if the honor is an Ace or King or Queen.

These two paragraphs are entirely consistent. So what do they add?