[spotlight7]

PrecisionL figure of @2% for a 2D opening looks much closer to the correct value than your "less than .6% of all deals."


Now we are talking about 1C* openings at a rate of @5% and Precision 2D bids at @2%


Jlall recently bid and made a 4S game with 8 opposite 11-12 after a 2D opening on VuGraph.

He apparently does not share your belief that a 2D bid in a Precision type system

should not show a three suited hand short in Ds. He also earned his team a game swing.



Your 'improved' 2D bid appears to require a good bit of guesswork. You have no idea

of stoppers in the majors and finding a fit in a major starts at the 2 level(or higher)



If you raise a major reply on xx you will often play in a 5-2 fit. If you wait for

a 6+ major suit before you bid 2M,you will not find a number of good 5-2 major fits.



How do you sign off/invite/force over this 2D opening of yours? You

are rapidly running out of bidding room and you need to discover many

different things that change with different kinds of responding hands.


A nebulous 1D opening allows an entire additional level of bidding than your 'improved' 2D opening.


The use of 2NT* to show a slightly stronger version of 5-5 minors costs you even more bidding room.



I assume that you also have never had a problem starting the bidding at the 2D or 2N level with these

unbalanced hands. You are a very lucky man or the dealer only gives you hands that fit your system.



I tend to play systems that I enjoy playing. You obviously enjoy your methods.


I do play a lot of systems to see 'how they work.' I learned

Blue Team Club back in the 70s because one pair used BTC and

the alerts did not appear to match what they put down in dummy.

[Trick13]

 PrecisionL, on 2016-August-28, 17:33, said:

"Putting all 4441s into 1NT creates problems where they did not exist prior to making that choice. It also cannot legally be played in ACBL events."

As of August 1, 2016 in ACBLand you may open 1NT with a singleton honor and no doubleton if the honor is an Ace or King or Queen.

The Precision 2♦ opening has a frequency of almost 2% of all distributions if you include 4315 and 3415 hands.

Precision2D = shape(north, 4414 + 4405 + 4315 + 3415) and hcp(north) >= 11 and hcp(north) <= 15
Action frequency "Precision2D" (Precision2D , 0, 1)

Dealer is giving me 0.65%.

[Trick13]

 spotlight7, on 2016-August-28, 21:20, said:

PrecisionL figure of @2% for a 2D opening looks much closer to the correct value than your "less than .6% of all deals."

...
Your 'improved' 2D bid appears to require a good bit of guesswork. You have no idea
of stoppers in the majors and finding a fit in a major starts at the 2 level(or higher)
...

You lost me here. It is a 1D opener I am talking about. Our 2D is weak either major.

[Trick13]

 spotlight7, on 2016-August-28, 07:05, said:

You open a multi meaning 1D* and "nothing bad ever happens when partner "with a weak hand and ....
Perhaps selective memory is involved.

I started out saying that the improvements were "unexpected and unintended". The combination of a 14-16 NT and a good 5+ unbalanced minor and responses that cater for that, in practice, work unexpectedly well, with or without competition. It also frees up the 2C and 2D openers and we are net positive there. We overload the 1NT opening, but I like that (a lot). I guess it is a matter of style and comfort zone. No more insipid 1D openers for me.

[Trick13]

 Phil, on 2016-August-28, 09:00, said:

You need to make a better argument than the bids frequency - you need to a) demonstrate there's a better use for the call and that B) you aren't being hurt with partners inability to raise diamonds since opener can be very short and c)you can work out sequences like 1D 1N 2C which generally shows both minors but seems like in your method,it just shows clubs.

Agreed. So we need to compare frequency x net gain and also factor in any net gain/losses caused in other parts of the system. It's very subjective and probably selective, but...

2C = 0-8 exactly 4S and 4 or 5 of a red suit. Frequently and strongly positive. I continue to be amazed after playing this for four years.
2D = weak single major, frequent and positive. This frees up 2H and 2S ...


>> inability to raise diamonds
We are comparing to the nebulous 1D which may only have 2D (or less), so you cannot raise that in diamonds either.

>> both minors
5-5 in the minors and 11-15 HCP? About 0.2% of hands, and only a fraction might cause a problem.

[nullve]

I've worked on something similar:

1♣/1M = modern Precision
1♦ = modern Precision 1♦, 2♣ or 2♦ opening, but 11-13 if bal.
1N = 14-16
2-level = weak preempts

1♦-? (basic idea, but expect to find stupid mistakes):

P: rare
1♥ = 0-12, either 5+ S or 4S4-H
...1♠ = 3-S3-H / max, 4 S
......1N = 4S4-H or 53(32)¹
.........P = min, 3- S
.........2♣ = max, 3-S5+C
.........2♦ = max, 3-S5+D
............2♥ = 4H1-D
...............P = 3 H
.........2♥ = ?
.........2♠ = max, 4 S
......2♣-2♠ = "0-12, 5+ S"
......Specifically:
......2♣ = Gazzilli: 0-12, either 5+S4+C or 5233 / 10-12, either 5+S4+D or 5+S4+H
.........2♦ = max, relay
.........2♥+ = min, nat.
......2♦ = 0-9, 5+S4+D
......2♥ = 0-9, 5+S4+H
......2♠ = 0-9, 6+ S
...1N = min, 3-S4H
......P = 0-12, either 4S3-H or (optionally) 53(32)
......2♣ = 0-12, either 5+S4+C or 5(32)3
......2♦ = 0-12, either 5+H4+D or 5332
......2♥ = 0-9, 4+ H
......2♠ = 0-9, 6+S3-H
...2♣ = max, either 3-S4H5+C or 1444
...2♦ = max, 3-S4H5+D
...2♥ = max, 5H6+m
...2♠ = min, 4 S
...(...)
1♠ = 0-9, 4(+)S5+H ("Flannery") / 0-12, 3-S3-H / 10-12, 6M3-OM ("IJS") / any GF
...1N = min
......P = 0-12, 3-S3-H
......2♣ = GF relay
......2♦ = Flannery: 0-9, 4(+)S5+H
......2M = IJS: 10-12, 6M3-OM
......(...)
...2♣+ = max.
...E.g. the simple but possibly suboptimal
...2m = max, either 6+ m or 5m4O
......P = m tolerance, weak
......2♦ = 6+ D, weak
......2♥ = Flannery: 0-9, 4(+)S5+H
......2♠ = GF relay
......(...)
...2♥ = max, 4H(441)
...2♠ = max, 4144
...2N = max, 5D5C
1N = 0-12, either 3-S4H or 35(32)¹
...P = min, 3- H
...2♣ = max, either 3-H5+C or 4144
...2♦ = max, 3-H5+D
...2♥ = min, 4+ H
...2♠ = max, 4+ H
...2N = max, 5+D5+C
...(...)
2♣-2♥ = "0-12, 5+ H"
Specifically:
2♣ = Gazzilli: 0-12, either 5+H4+C or 2533 / 10-12, either 5H4+D or 4(+)S5+H²
...2♦ = max, relay
...2♥+ = min, nat.
2♦ = 0-9, 5+H4+D
2♥ = 0-9, 3-S6+H
2♠ = 0-9, 6+m4+Om
2N = 0-9, 5+D5+C
3♣ = 0-9, 3-S3-H3-D7+C
3♦ = 0-9, 3-s3-H7+D3-C
(...)

¹ (53)(32) is a (mild) problem shape in this structure if Responder has 0-12.
² [30 Aug 2016:] It's probably better to put 10-12, 4(+)5+H in the 1♠ response instead and play 1♦-1♠; 1N-2♣ = "Flannery or GF".

Don't know how to make the 1♦ opening work if it contains 14-16 bal. instead of 11-13 bal., but I might have some ideas.

Added, 3 June 2018:

Spoiler

Possible relay structure (skeletal):

1♦-1♠; ?:

1N = MIN, not 6+m4+Om
...2♣ = GF relay
......2♦ = BAL or 4(441)
......2♥ = either 1-suited w/ 6+ D or 4M5+D
.........2♠ = relay
............2N = 4H5+D
............3♣ = 6+ D, 1-suited
............3♦+ = 4S5+D
.........(...)
......2♠ = 5m4Om or 5D5C
.........2N = relay
............3♣ = 4D5C
............3♦ = 5D5C
............3♥+ = 5D4C
.........(...)
......2N = 4H5+C
......3♣ = 6+ C, 1-suited
......3♦+ = 4S5+C
...2♦ = weak, Flannery
...2M = IJS in M
...(...)
2♣ = MAX, either 6+ C, 5C4M, 5+m4+Om OR 4C(441)
...P: allowed
...2♦ = GF relay*
......2♥ = 5+m4+Om
.........2♠ = relay
............2N = 4D5+C
............3♣ = 5+D5+C
............3♦+ = 5+D4C
.........(...)
......2♠ = 4C(441) or 5C(440)
......2N = 4H5+C
......3♣ = 6+ C, 1-suited
......3♦+ = 4S5+C
...2♥ = weak Flannery
...(...)
2♦ = MAX, either 4M4+D or 1-suited w/ 6+ D
...P: allowed
...2♥ = weak, Flannery
...2♠ = GF relay
......2N = 4H5+D
......3♣ = 6+ D, 1-suited
......3♦+ = 4S5+D
...(...)
2♥ = MIN, either 2H6+m4+Om or 2+H5D5C OR MAX, 4H(441)
2♠ = MIN, either 2S6+m4+Om or 2+S5D5C OR MAX, 4144
2N = MIN, 1-S1-H6+m5+Om
3m = MIN, 1-S2-H7+m4Om
(...)

* If Responder is weak with 3-S3-H5+D2-C, then he may have a problem now. Maybe it was better to respond 1♥ (ostensibly 4+ S) with 3352 or 3361?

There are no way to show MAX, 4S4H4+D right now, but maybe MAX, 4441 is a 1N opening and 4450 can be shown as (43)51?

[not finished]

[Kungsgeten]

To me it seems that a canapé style would work best if you want to free up the 2C bid. Also having just one NT range would help in order to have less nebulous openings. Perhaps something like this:

1C = 16+
1D = 3+ clubs. May be 12--15 NT / 4C and 5+ other / 6+C. Perhaps 5+C and 4D could open this too.
1H = 3+ hearts. May be 12--15 NT without 3C / 4H and 5+ other / 6+H.
1S = 4 or 6+ spades.
1NT = 4 or 6+ diamonds.

The reason for 1D showing clubs instead of diamonds is to have 2C available as a relay over 1NT.

Another idea I've been thinking about is to have unbalanced hands with diamonds thrown in with the 1C opening, but I'm afraid that would hurt the contested auction a lot. Part of the idea is that opener can pass the 1C-1D negative when holding diamonds. This was discussed in another thread about the Baltic Club.

1C = 16+ or 11--15 with 5+D.
1D = 11--15 with 4+C.
1M = 11--15, 5+M.
1NT = 12--15, may be 4-4-4-1.

[spotlight7]

 Trick13, on 2016-August-29, 01:15, said:

Precision2D = shape(north, 4414 + 4405 + 4315 + 3415) and hcp(north) >= 11 and hcp(north) <= 15
Action frequency "Precision2D" (Precision2D , 0, 1)

Dealer is giving me 0.65%.

PrecisionL stated that @2% figure.



On 2016 Aug 28 04:44 you posted that x Ax Axxxx KJxxx was a 2D opener.


Now you state that it shows a major like a multi?


If you are changing your system without telling us, our replies will become random noise.

[nullve]

 spotlight7, on 2016-August-31, 06:52, said:

On 2016 Aug 28 04:44 you posted that x Ax Axxxx KJxxx was a 2D opener.

No, he didn't.

 straube, on 2016-August-28, 00:41, said:

How do you show both minors? What's your rebid with x Ax Axxxx KJxxx or x Axxx xxxxx AKJ after a 1D-1S start?

 Trick13, on 2016-August-28, 02:44, said:

x Ax Axxxx KJxxx. 2D. If a tad stronger, 2NT.

[Trick13]

 spotlight7, on 2016-August-31, 06:52, said:

PrecisionL stated that @2% figure.

On 2016 Aug 28 04:44 you posted that x Ax Axxxx KJxxx was a 2D opener.
Now you state that it shows a major like a multi?

If you are changing your system without telling us, our replies will become random noise.

If you read the context I was saying that I would respond 2D after 1D - 1S.

[nullve]

 Trick13, on 2016-August-28, 02:44, said:

x Axxx xxxxx AKJ. I'm opening this 1NT.

How about opening 1N on all quasi-balanced¹ minima, at least those without a 5c major? Would that be too extreme? (I'm trying to come up with a good Weak 1N version of my structure above, and that's obviously easier if the 1N opening covers more shapes.)

¹ in Glen Ashton's sense

[straube]

 nullve, on 2016-September-02, 03:27, said:

How about opening 1N on all quasi-balanced¹ minima, at least those without a 5c major? Would that be too extreme? (I'm trying to come up with a good Weak 1N version of my structure above, and that's obviously easier if the 1N opening covers more shapes.)

¹ in Glen Ashton's sense

I've been thinking this is almost forced. How, for example, what would you rebid x Axx Axxxx KJxx after 1D-1H? If you raise hearts partner assumes the strong balance hand or a shapely minimum with four trump. If you rebid 2D this shows much too strong a preference for diamonds when the contract could belong in either minor, hearts, or no trump. So you might as well open 1N and at least get the strength right. Partner knows you can have a singleton and you're making this just more likely.

This structure is really just about how to divvy up opening hands between 1D and 1N that in Precision or IMprecision would open 1D, 1N, 2C, or 2D. So it's just math that he's losing a lot of precision with this. He's not going to be able to relay out opener's pattern (which can be done in IMprecision for example).

The question is whether using 2C and 2D for preemptive bids is worth it. IDK.

[nullve]

Work in progress:

1♦ = min non-QBal Precision 1♦, 2♣ or 2♦ opening (~ rules of 19-21) / max Precision 1♦, 2♣ or 2♦ opening (~ rules of 22-24) / 14-16 bal.
1N = min QBal Precision 1♦, 2♣ or 2♦ opening (~ rules of 19-21 or 11-13 bal.)


1♦-?:

P: rare
1♥ = 0-9, 4S4-H / 0-12, 5(+) S
1♠ = 0-9, either 3-S3-H or 4(+)S5+H ("Flannery") / 10-12, rarely 5 M / any GF
1N = 0-9, 3-S4H
2♣ = Gazzilli: 0-9, either 5(+)H4+C or 5H(332) / 10-12, 5(+) H
...2♦ = max, relay
...2♥+ = min, nat.
2♦ = 0-9, 5(+)H4+D
2♥ = 0-9, 3-S6+H
2♠ = 0-9, 6+m4+Om
2N = 0-9, 5+D5+C
3♣ = 0-9, 3-S3-H3-D7+C
3♦ = 0-9, 3-s3-H7+D3-C
(...)


1♦-1♥; ?:

1♠ = max, either Qbal with either 3- H or 4 S or non-QBal with 3 S / 3 S, QBal
...1N = 0-9, 4S4-H
......P = min, 3 S / max, QBal, 3- S
......2♣ = min, 3 S, not 6+m4+Om
.........2♦ = relay
............2♥ = 34(60)
............2♠ = ?
............2N = 3055
............3m = 3S7+m, 1-suited
......2♦ = 30(64)
......2♥ = max, 34(60)
......2♠ = max, 4 S
......(...)
...2♣ = Gazzilli: 0-9, either 5(+)S4+C or 5S(332) / 10-12, 5(+) S
......2♦ = max, relay
......2♥+ = min, nat.
...2♦ = 0-9, 5(+)S4+D
...2♥ = 0-9, 5+S4+H
...2♠ = 0-9, 6+S3-H
1N = max, QBal, 3-S4H
...P = 0-9, 4S3-H
...2♣ = Gazzilli: 0-9, either 5(+)S4+C or 5S(332) / 10-12, 5(+) S
...2♦ = 0-9, 5(+)H4+D
...2♥ = 0-9, 4+ H
...2♠ = 0-9, 6+S3-H
2♣ = min, not 3 S, not 6+m4+Om
...2♦ = relay
......2♥ = 2-S4+H5+m
......2♠ = 4S5+m
......2N = 2-S5+D5+C
......3m = 2-S7+m, 1-suited
2♦ = 2-S6+m4+Om
...2♥ = inv+ relay
......2♠ = min, 4+D6+C (=> 3m = to play)
......2N = min, 6+D4+C (=> 3m = to play)
......3♣ = max, 2-S4+D6+C
......3♦ = max, 2-S6+D4+C
...2♠ = 0-9, 6+ S
...2N = 0-9, relay
...3m = 0-9, pref.
...(...)
2♥ = max, 4+H5+m, not QBal
2♠ = max, 4+S5+m, not QBal
2N = max, 2-S5D5C
3m = max, 2-S7+m, 1-suited
(...)


1♦-1♠; ?:

1N = max, QBal
...P = 0-9, 3-S3-H
...2♣ = GF relay
......2♦+ = something wonderful
...2♦ = Flannery: 0-9, 4(+)S5+H
...(...)
2♣ = min, not 6+m4+Om
...2♦ = relay
......2♥ = 04(54), 44(50) or 4+H6+m
......2♠ = 40(54) or 4+S6+m
......2N = 5+D5+C
......3♣ = 7+ m, 1-suited
2♦ = 6+m4Om
...2♥ = inv+ relay
......For example:
......2♠ = min, 4+D6+C (=> 3m = to play)
......2N = min, 6+D4+C (=> 3m = to play)
......3♣ = max, 4+D6+C
......3♦ = max, 6+D4+C
...2♠ = Major Flash(!) (Law protected)
...2N = 0-9, relay
...3m = 0-9, pref.
...(...)
2♥ = max, 4+H5+C, not QBal
2♠ = max, 4+S5+D, not QBal
2N = max, 5+D5+C
3m = max, 7+ m, 1-suited


1♦-1N; ?:

More of the same:

P = QBal
2♣ = min, not 6+m4+Om
...2♦ = relay
......2♥ = 4 H
......2♠ = 4+S5+m
......2N = 5+D5+C
......3m = 7+ m, not 1-suited
......(...)
2♦ = 6+m4+Om
...2♥ = relay
......2♠ = min, 4+D6+C
......2N = min, 6+D4+C
......3♣ = max, 4+D6+C
......3♦ = max, 6+D4+C
2♥ = max, 4 H
2♠ = max, 4+S3-H5+m, not QBal
2N = max, 5+D5+C
3m = max, 7+ m, 1-suited
(...)

This post has been edited by nullve: 2016-September-02, 15:38

[Kungsgeten]

If I remember correctly Ice Relay used a nebulous opening similar to his, and so did the Swedish F-Club system (played by Nilsland-Fallenius). Marshall Miles' Unbalanced Diamond is similar, but it removes the balanced hand type.

I think that a switch of the 1H and 1S responses could work, where 1H also includes GF relay type hands.

1D--1H;
1S = Unbal, no major.
1N = Natural, may have spades.
2m = Minor + hearts
2H = Clubs + spades
2S = Diamonds + spades
2NT = 5-5 minors max
3C = 5-5 minors min

[Trick13]

 straube, on 2016-September-02, 09:04, said:

I've been thinking this is almost forced.

Yes it is. I like off-shape with a weak NT (10-12 would be even better - we are trialling that but no discernable improvement, yet). It wouldn't work with a stronger NT. This was just a serendipitous side effect. My original objective was just to simplify by not having bids and sequences reserved for the low frequency 4441s.

 straube, on 2016-September-02, 09:04, said:

How, for example, what would you rebid x Axx Axxxx KJxx after 1D-1H?

Yes, I would be sorely tempted to open 1NT with that (to preempt a 1S overcall). With Axx x Axxxx KJxx I would open 1D (because our response structure favours spades), With better playing strength x Jxx AKxxx AJTx I will probably open 1D. In practice I'm not going to have your rebid problem because our 1H response shows spades but that is another story.

[Trick13]

One draw back of this particular 1♦ opener that I forgot to mention is that YOU LOSE THE OPTION TO OPEN EVERY WEAK HAND 1♦ IN THIRD POSITION.

[mikestar13]

 The_Badger, on 2016-August-28, 02:21, said:

I played Precision for years, first Wei, then the Blue Team variations, then the Sontag version, then...

Ah Precision...what has it become? A real hotchpotch of juggled bids that resemble nothing like the original system

I admit Wei Precision had its faults, nothing major mind you as all bids were clearly defined, but it was easy for beginners to learn and understand. And that's important in bridge I feel.

I can understand players tinkering with systems but wholesale rape (for want of a better word) is anathema, I feel. Why keep on calling it 'Precision': just because you open 1♣ with 16+ points?

[This is just a personal view, and players can use what systems and conventions they like, but I don't believe any other major bidding system has undergone so many changes in its lifetime.]

Maybe because it is good enough to try to improvet? Unlike Standard American, which was not worth the effort until it morphed into 2/1--then that was interesting and worthwhile to try to improve still further.

For the purpose of general disclose (say the system line at the top of the system card) I think the characteristics that define Precision are (1) 1♣ strong and artificial, usually 16+, and (2) five-card majors.

Of course other details will be disclosed: Does 2♣ require 6, or is 5 cards acceptable? How short can 1♦ be? What is the no trump range?

IMHO, small deviations do not make a system "not Precision". For example, an aggressive 1♣ with 15+ or a conservative 1♣ with 17+, or opening 1♥ with 4-4-1-4 shape precisely.

OTOH, big deviations are "not Precision": For example, four card majors common. (A big club four card major system can be excellent, but I would definitely class it as "not Precision").

[PrecisionL]

Trick13 said:

1474149701[/url]' post='898076']
One draw back of this particular 1♦ opener that I forgot to mention is that YOU LOSE THE OPTION TO OPEN EVERY WEAK HAND 1♦ IN THIRD POSITION.

Although that was a bone of contention in the World Tournament just concluded in Poland, it is not clear that in ACBL games/tournaments you are not able to open 1D in 3rd position with less than an opening hand.

[PrecisionL]

Trick13 said:

1474149701[/url]' post='898076']
One draw back of this particular 1♦ opener that I forgot to mention is that YOU LOSE THE OPTION TO OPEN EVERY WEAK HAND 1♦ IN THIRD POSITION.

Although that was a bone of contention in the World Tournament just concluded in Poland, it is not clear that in ACBL games/tournaments thatyou are not able to open 1D in 3rd position with less than an opening hand.

[PrecisionL]

Trick13 said:

1474149701[/url]' post='898076']
One draw back of this particular 1♦ opener that I forgot to mention is that YOU LOSE THE OPTION TO OPEN EVERY WEAK HAND 1♦ IN THIRD POSITION.

Although that was a bone of contention in the World Tournament just concluded in Poland, it is not clear that in ACBL games/tournaments that you are not able to open 1D in 3rd position with less than an opening hand.