lycier, on 2016-August-27, 18:18, said:
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Hand-1
Hand-2
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Question-1
For human, how to respond normally in the two hands above?
To me, hand 1 is on the edge between pass and 1nt. I personally pass, as I don't think the potential for making game/improving contract to 2H is particularly high compared to the chance of going minus if partner bids too much. Without any real fit I think it's fine to pass with 5 balanced.
Hand 2, personally I would bid 1nt intending to usually try to play 3d or maybe spades if partner shows long spades or does FG jump shift. Since I think I can take a lot of tricks in diamonds and bidding rather than passing makes it harder for the opponents to find their heart and/or club fit, and even if I go down in 3d it's likely fine vs. the opps making something. Though passing is not crazy I'd rate it below bidding. I would also suggest that trying to form your arguments about TP based on hands containing 9+ cd suits is super weird. 9 cd suits are extremely rare animals, one doesn't program software to cater to deal with extremely uncommon hand patterns. You try to cater to the more common hand types. Now one could perhaps introduce rules to handle these super rare distributions in a reasonable manner if it one crops up in a bug report, but it would be pretty low on the totem pole to fix.
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Question-2
For Gib, would you know Gib E how to respond in the two hands above?
Not without testing, but I'm sure you'll tell us.
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Some day I encountered a special Gib hand at BBO.
A little bizarre responding ! This Gib hand caught my attention. So I decided to make some simulating hands to show what Gibs are doing.
Responding 1nt isn't bizarre. It's a common 2/1 treatment to use a forcing NT raise with weak spade raises in the ~4-6 pt range. The bizarre part is the jump to 4S which should show the 3 cd LR hand type not the weak raise type. Preference to 3s is normal on the second round, this is simply a bug that ought to be fixed.
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On the Gib CC, the exact definition of forcing 1N is " Forcing one notrumph --- 3-♠,6+hcp,12-TPs".
These hands above completely showed its definition isn't correct.
Its true definition :
- When with 3-card support, it promises 6-12TPs with 0+hcp.
- When without 3-card support, it promises 6+hcp with 5+TPs.
Yeah, it's pretty standard for humans to play forcing NT as:
[1] 6-12 hcp, 2- M
OR
[2]
4-6 tp, 3M.
With some debate on exactly what range to use for [2], it basically goes up to the floor of the direct raise, and there are advocates for 8+ (constructive, not particularly popular in my estimation), 7+ (semi-constructive), 6+ (non-constructive). GIB does 7+ for the direct raise which happens to be what I prefer. But others like to raise a little weaker.
GIB seems be doing something more like 5-6 tp, 3M for the second set of hands, the weak raise type.
So it's not really a complete description for the forcingNT. Just add one to the list of many not totally accurate GIB descriptions. Note the human language description is just for the ease of use of humans, doesn't necessarily completely show what the GIB rules are doing underneath. It's nicer if they match, but it's sometimes hard to get it to print something accurate for the human description. Also the GIB bidding language doesn't really have a way to describe bids that have disjoint sets, e.g. 2nt rebids that are 12-14 OR 18-19.
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1- Its definition looks like a multipurpose definition, is it allowed in tournaments?
Yes, it's allowed. Yes, human experts do this routinely.
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2- How Gib wildly superstitious Total Point !
I fail to see how this qualifies as "superstition". Computers aren't superstitious. They follow rules layed out by humans. I fail to see how these examples at all illustrate anything to do with your apparent belief that TP are the root of all evil. For one thing, you don't really say anything about what you think GIB ought to have bid instead on these hands and what your criteria are for bidding or passing or bidding 1nt.
On some of the example hands where GIB tries a 1nt bid, and then ends up in 4s, a lot of them rate to make on a normal honor from CAKxx lead. Yes, they can go down on double dummy best leads. But that's bridge, sometimes you get overboard double dummy. But you'll show profit if you do well on those hands on average as opps will often not find the best lead. I suppose you wanted GIB to pass instead?
The idea behind bidding 1nt with the weak raise hands is:
- a direct raise would be too encouraging, partner will blast game or make game tries and tend to go down when you have 5 pts instead of the expected 8 or so, K stronger on average. Putting some weak raises in 1nt tightens up your direct raise range which makes bidding more accurate over that bid.
- bidding rather than passing makes it harder for the opponents to come in because you are still wide ranging, and it's also hard for them to balance after your eventual 2M because you might only be on 7 card fit.
- game is still possible if partner has a huge hand, so may want to keep the bidding alive on these 5 TP hands.
- even if you go down in your eventual contract, it's not super likely that you would have bought the contract for 1M making exactly 1, because the opponents will usually balance, and if you are down it's OK if the opps are making their contract.
Now sometimes you will go down and passing instead of 1nt would have allowed you to go plus. But that's bridge, it's a game of percentages, and people who include weak raises in 1nt estimate that they are net plus on these hands vs. passing. Doesn't mean that any particular example you might pull out might be one of the losing cases.
None of this really has anything to do with use of TP or not, in my view. It's a matter of how you want to utilize the F1nt. TP is just for hand evaluation purposes. I for one definitely support use of TP, or at least some other method of taking distribution into account, as I DO think 1nt is reasonable on xxx x xxxxxxxxx -, but definitely want to pass and not bid 1nt with xxx xxx xxxx xxx.
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