[Liversidge]

In an article on whether 1430 is better than 3014, Eddie Kantar says: "Keep in mind that 4NT is seldom used as a key-card ask after a minor suit agreement." but doesn't go on to explain why.

[wank]

 Liversidge, on 2016-August-14, 05:57, said:

In an article on whether 1430 is better than 3014, Eddie Kantar says: "Keep in mind that 4NT is seldom used as a key-card ask after a minor suit agreement." but doesn't go on to explain why.

some people play other bids as keycard in many auctions.

there's something called kickback whereby the suit above the trump suit asks.

some others play that 4 of a bid minor sets trumps and is keycard.

anyway, it's really not worth worrying about.

[ahydra]

Probably the main point is that it's very easy to get too high when a minor suit is trumps. For example, 4NT-5D (no keycards), oops we're off two keycards and can't play in 5C. Hence why people prefer things like Kickback (4 of suit above trumps = RKC) or Minorwood (4 of trump suit = RKC) for minor suit slams.

ahydra

[The_Badger]

hi Liversidge,

There is a convention called Minorwood where a bid of 4♣ or 4♦ asks for controls similiarly to RKCB.

With the 2/1 bidding system there are inverted raises, so a reply of 2♣to 1♣, and 2♦ to 1♦ show at least 5 card support and about 11+ points. If opener wants to inquire about controls he can then bid 4♣ or 4♦ respectively.

RKCB 4NT tends to occur far more for major suit games, I have found. Personally I prefer 0314 as the 5♣ bid is for least number of aces.

And as wank says there are other RKCB bids that are initiated below 4NT too. All by agreement.

[Cyberyeti]

I play 3014, but I play kickback (4 of the suit above the trump suit asks) and it doesn't much matter in that case.

Say hearts are trumps and you use 4N as Blackwood. Over 5♣ you can ask for Q, over 5♦ you can't, is it more common that partner has 0/3 or 1/4 when you need to ask ?

I'd suggest 1 is the most common number by a distance and that's part of why 1430 has plenty of adherents

[steve2005]

The only advantage to 1430 over is when ♥ is trump, responder has 1KC and you need to find out about Q♥.
Playing 1430 responder has bid 5♣ you bid 5♦ to ask about Q.
Playing 3014 responder bids 5♦ and you cant ask for Q.

I think Kantar in his book suggests playing 3014 if the weaker hand is asking, but that's just asking for a mix-up.

[fromageGB]

Another advantage of 4130 is when diamonds are trumps. If you need partner to have an ace for slam, then one ace enables you to look for the Q.
Conversely, when clubs are trumps, 3041 is better, because then with no aces you can pass out the game. Playing 4130 here will have partner effectively bidding the slam with no aces.

Of course, the best thing is to move on to better methods when you have normal every-day bidding buttoned up.

[msjennifer]

We prefer a jump to 4 in the nonagreed minor (if we wish to play in an agreed minor ) as RKCB followed as usual by the Spiral.

[mycroft]

Heh, yesterday, I had the "right" 17 opposite my partner's weak NT to try for 6♣, but only 3 KC (or two with Q) would be sufficient. So, if I asked (yes, with 4NT), if I got the right answer, I was safe, but if I got the wrong answer, I was too high. So I just blasted it.

It worked :-). Unfortunately, that was the match where we were up 40 before we scored that board.

[Zelandakh]

Kantar is a supporter of Minorwood in auctions with 3 level suit agreement and Kickback in auctions with 4 level agreement. This means that the only times 4NT is used as an ask for a minor is when the suit is agreed at the 4 level and the higher-ranking suits are all on the "do not use" list (first bid suits + suits bid by the opps). If you look at Chapter XIV of the online RKCB guide (find it at Bridge with Dan if you do not already have it) it explains all of this in reasonable detail.