[Liversidge]

I am East. What do I bid?

---

[akwoo]

You double. You'll have a problem on the next round if partner bids 2♥, but he or she might bid something else.

[Liversidge]

 akwoo, on 2016-August-01, 01:14, said:

You double. You'll have a problem on the next round if partner bids 2♥, but he or she might bid something else.

Would you still double if the hand was a bit stronger, say swopping the ♦Q for ♦A?

[eagles123]

yes its a wtp double, sometimes new players are taught that you must have 4 of the other major for a takeout double - this is just wrong, of course having 4 hearts here would be desirable but 3 is plenty for a takeout double.

[wank]

 Liversidge, on 2016-August-01, 01:39, said:

Would you still double if the hand was a bit stronger, say swopping the ♦Q for ♦A?

yes. to ask this question implies you don't understand the basics of takeout doubling. the more points you have, the less you need a particular hand shape, because you clarify matters on the next round. the extra points meaning you have enough for 2 bids.

with fewer points, shape is more important. for example, if this hand were an 11 count, you might decide to pass 1 spade with this shape, even though you would happily double with 2434, the lack of a 4th heart being a minor negative.

[Stephen Tu]

Double has no upper limit. Different hand shapes might make you not double, not extra high cards.

[NickRW]

X every day of the week. Not 100% ideal without 4 hearts, but every other choice is (a lot) worse.

[Liversidge]

 Stephen Tu, on 2016-August-01, 01:46, said:

Double has no upper limit. Different hand shapes might make you not double, not extra high cards.

That clears it up thanks. I knew that "double then bid"/"double then cue bid" were used for stronger hands with a 5+ card suit, "and double then NT/jump NT" were for stronger balanced hands with stops, but somehow had got it into my head that I hadn't got a way of dealing with a strong hand with no 5 card suit and no stop(s). I hadn't twigged that a double is unlimited.

[Trinidad]

A double says:
I) Either: Partner, I have support for all unbid suits
II) Or: I am strong and I am going to clarify my hand on the next round.

In the next round of the auction,
with I), you have shown your hand and you obey your partner.
with II), you will have to show the nature of your hand:

    1) a suit shows a suit, too good to overcall, but not enough to force to game
    2) a NT bid shows a (semi-)balanced hand too good to overcall 1NT, but not enough to force to game
    3) a cue bid works as a repeat takeout double, it says:

        i) Either: Partner, I am strong, and I want you to pick a suit, but I don't have 4 card support for your first suit
        ii) Or: I am super strong and I am going to clarify my hand on the next round.

        In the next round of the auction,
        with i), you have shown your hand and you obey your partner.
        with ii), you will have to show the nature of your hand:

        You get the idea...

Rik

[helene_t]

Double and then bid 2s after partner's 2h. This shows 17+ with this exact shape or something similar, or any gf hand.

Then pass whatever partner bids unless he jumps to 4c or 4d or cuebids

[rmnka447]

Double.

I think Trinidad has written an excellent template for take out double bidding. From it (and as helene t recommends), you can infer that you'll cue 2 ♠ over 2 ♥ by partner and see what partner does next.

[Caitlynne]

Double.

Why is this a problem? You have (far more than) opening bid strength and at least 3 card support for all unbid suits.

What is more problematic is, assuming responder passes, what to do when advancer bids? Neither 2C nor 2D is a problem - you can simply cue bid 2S and then respect whatever advancer does. But 2H is more of a problem. I would still bid 2S - I think I am just a tad too good for a simple raise to 3H (which shows about 16 or 17 HCP with 4 card support) even though I have only 3 card heart support.

[m1cha]

 helene_t, on 2016-August-01, 08:13, said:

Double and then bid 2s after partner's 2h. This shows 17+ with this exact shape or something similar, or any gf hand.

Then pass whatever partner bids unless he jumps to 4c or 4d or cuebids

Sorry Helene, but I don't agree here. According to my notes (probably from the book by Lébely/Bessis), double + forced response + (pass) + cuebid is always the gf hand (24+ points, they say). [A different thing: If opener rebids, then 20 points are sufficient for a cuebid (and I certainly wouldn't mind 19 or a good 18) but obviously this applies to a situation where advancer can still settle in our major suit on the 3 level, not in spades.]

If we take this as given, what can we do with the OP's hand? A new suit would describe the strength but should be longer. A raise should be based on 4 cards in ♥ but if we are desperate enough with a really strong hand we may thing of playing game in a Moysian 4-3 fit. The other option is pass. Pass with 19 points? Well, partner has 0 - 7, we may not have a good fit, so unless everything is perfect, which full game are we heading to play in? And if we are not heading for a full game and don't have a fit, we better stay low.

My point for pass is this. First let's assume opponents do not voluntarily bid on the 2 level. Then they probably don't have a fit, so West should have 4 cards in spades, probably 4432 or 4423 distributed. East has 2344. You are sure you want to force partner on the 3 level at a total of ~ 20 points?

On the other hand, let's assume opponents do have a fit. Then they will not let you play 2♥, they will bid 2♠. Now West has less cards in spades and more cards in useful suits, better than 3433 unless we are very unlucky. So when the bidding comes back to East at a level of 2♠, East can now double again to show exactly 3 cards in ♥ (because with 4 cards we would raise and with 2 or less we would have a different bid), probably 4-4+ in the minors and some additional points. If East rebids 3♥ now, that would be a 5+ card suit and we may even find a game in ♥.

[zillahandp]

X whats the alternative? Whats the problem?

[wank]

there's a lot of rubbish written in books micha. there's obviously a lot of space between 2H and game. there's enough in fact to differentiate between 'extras' and 'GF' hence what helene wrote. that partner's often got spades is a good thing - it means 3NT is in the game and that we can stop in 2NT if he doesn't have enough.

[Stephen Tu]

 m1cha, on 2016-August-02, 11:20, said:

Sorry Helene, but I don't agree here. According to my notes (probably from the book by Lébely/Bessis), double + forced response + (pass) + cuebid is always the gf hand (24+ points, they say). [A different thing: If opener rebids, then 20 points are sufficient for a cuebid (and I certainly wouldn't mind 19 or a good 18) but obviously this applies to a situation where advancer can still settle in our major suit on the 3 level, not in spades.]

If you wait for 24+ to cue bid you are severely under-utilizing the call. Also you are practically forcing a pass with 19-23 missing a ton of games, or raising on 3 which gets to the wrong game quite often. Also you are advocating a jump to the 3 level by responder a lot on random 8 or 9 counts, 4 cd suit, to avoid these games, which is too much a lot of the time if your lower limit of the double is a shapely 11-12. Lawrence in his takeout doubles book advocates something like 18+ for the cue.

I want to cater to 18-23 pt hands which will be substantially more common than 24+ after an opponent opens, and not force responder to jump super-light since I want to get in there on my 12 counts too.

If opener rebids you have the option of doubling again with extras which would be way more common and economical than cue-bidding.

[m1cha]

 wank, on 2016-August-02, 11:54, said:

there's a lot of rubbish written in books micha. there's obviously a lot of space between 2H and game.

Well, there is not so much space between the forced answer to a 2♠ overcall (i.e., 2NT to 3♥) and game (3NT), and if advancer has to jump with a maximum in order to prevent overcaller from passing his bid, there is even less space.

While on the other hand there really IS much space between 17 points (17 overcaller + 0 minimum advancer) and game, and there is still some space between 24 points (17 overcaller + 7 maximum advancer) and game; especially if you have to play in NT without tricks from a long suit and with a very limited number of transitions between the hands.

What I want to argue is that the 2♠ overcall should at least be invitational with substantial probability for game. I do not believe that you write positive in the long run by rasing to the 3 level just for the fun of it.

 wank, on 2016-August-02, 11:54, said:

that partner's often got spades is a good thing - it means 3NT is in the game and that we can stop in 2NT if he doesn't have enough.

Yes, spades, but no points. 9xxx in spades will not stop the 5-card ♠ suit opener has already shown. I mean, if 2♠ asks for stoppers (among length features) and advancer is asked to bid 2NT with ♠Kxxx ♥xxxx ♦xxx ♣xx (or equivalent or better), or 3NT with ♠Kxxx ♥Kxxx ♦xxx ♣xx, I believe that can work. But not opposite 17 or 18 points, rather opposite 20+ points.

[m1cha]

@Stephen Tu

I agree you need adequate coverage of those (20) 21 - 23 points hands.
And yes, I was putting advancer's forced answer at 0 - 7 points. If advancer can be stronger, overcaller can be lighter.

Edit: My country's official bidding system has recently undergone a major overhaul. I have just checked the new system description: The overcall here is at 20+ HCP. (Just mentioning; I am not suggesting this should be a universal truth.)

[iandayre]

Double is automatic with this hand. And yes, if partner bids 2H you should continue with 2S. If you want a real problem, exchange the small H for a small S.

[msjennifer]

Double and then 2S showing 18 good to 21HCP. Thereafter,Lebensohl.(Partner can have anywhere between 0 to 9 HCP).