[JonnyQuest]

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Should slam be found?

If yes, who needs to make the move?

Suggested auction?

[wank]

south can obviously do no more.

north can envisage a few hands where slam is good, but is no doubt hamstrung by not having a forcing raise available, without misleading p as to shape. perhaps he could try 4C, but that's far from ideal, considering AD and Kxx clubs would be a great combination. maybe 3C and then 4H over whatever responder does, but it's all pretty deep.

no blame on the whole

[apollo1201]

Not stating wether the auction is 2/1 or not, I guess 3H by N was not forcing (just to point out: some non 2/1 systems state that 3H is GF, with a minimal opening and a fit, opener repeats his S and signs off in 3H e.g. over a non forcing 2NT).
Anyway, with 19 HCP with aces and 2 useful queens, N should do sth more. Which does not men it will be the best slam you'll play😄

[Cyberyeti]

apollo1201, on 2016-July-23, 02:09, said:

Not stating wether the auction is 2/1 or not, I guess 3H by N was not forcing (just to point out: some non 2/1 systems state that 3H is GF, with a minimal opening and a fit, opener repeats his S and signs off in 3H e.g. over a non forcing 2NT).
Anyway, with 19 HCP with aces and 2 useful queens, N should do sth more. Which does not men it will be the best slam you'll play😄

South's a passed hand, do people really play 2/1 GF by a passed hand ?

My auction is not very useful, as I'd open the S hand 1♥, now when N finds out about A♦, you won't keep him out of slam.

That said it's not a great slam, on a diamond lead is not even 50:50.

[apollo1201]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-July-23, 02:26, said:

South's a passed hand, do people really play 2/1 GF by a passed hand ?

Oops my mistake. That's what happens when you read on your mobile from the beach...

N can still try but as we all said, it is not the best slam you'll ever play.

[gszes]

I voted 100% N not because I think slam is so great but because N failed to use 1 scintilla of imagination when it came to slam potential opposite this passed hand. Kx Kxxxxx Kx xxx and 6H should roll and a tad better Kx Kxxxxx Ax xxx and 7 is starting to look feasible. If this partnership opens super light (cyber) then these types of hands should not exist or if your requirements for a weak 2 are very loose then these hands should also not exist but for the vast majority slam should at the very least be a consideration.
I would bid 3c over 2h (don't tell me there is really a system in place where that is NF). Correcting to 4h whatever south does this sequence should at least give south reason to suspect slam potential and we still have not bypassed game level. The problem with 4h bid is it can be significantly weaker and more distributional. AKxxxx Axxx void xxx

[rmnka447]

No blame! I don't think the slam is a good one, so rate 4 ♥ as a normal contract.

The question isn't so much seeing that partner might have the right cards for slam, but finding any realistic way to find out whether partner has them or not. The tools just aren't there in this instance.

This isn't a slam I'd lose much sleep over missing. If someone else playing a strong ♣ system could get all the information and bid the slam, more power to them.

[sfi]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-July-23, 02:26, said:

South's a passed hand, do people really play 2/1 GF by a passed hand ?

A passed hand's 2/1 can't really be game forcing - it can't even be forcing if it's a natural bid. What is important, IMO, is that the passed hand has to respect any forces from partner. Opener's hand is unlimited, so the limited hand shouldn't really be taking that sort of unilateral action. So the question is what can North bid to show a good hand? I would rate the options as:

• 3H - even in a non-2/1 system this is better played as forcing. This is especially true when responder is a passed hand, because North can just pass with a poor opener.
  
• 4C - obviously only useful if a cue rather than a splinter, but probably necessary if 3H is not forcing.
  
• 3C - not terribly useful, but at least it's forcing and the hand does have values there. North can support hearts next and South should get the gag.
  
• 4H - only if I have no other bid that will ensure I reach game.

[wank]

perhaps 2NT should be a forcing heart raise. with a weak no trump and a doubleton heart you'd probably just put the dummy down

[Trinidad]

I wouldn't worry about missing this slam.

Having said that, I think it interesting to look at the bidding anyway.

Before I started playing 2/1 GF (already decades ago), I played simple Standard American. My partner and I concluded pretty soon that it doesn't make any sense to play the sequence 1♠-2♥; 3♥ as invitational. Reasoned in beginner's terms: "The opening promises 12 points, the 2/1 promises at least 10-11. Together they are worth a minimum of 23. Once the fit has been found, opener has at least 1 distribution point, for a total of at least 24 points. Conclusion: 1♠-2♥; 3♥ is forcing to game, even if the 2/1 wasn't.

This situation is somewhat different, in the sense that South is a passed hand, but similar principles apply. Nevertheless, the 2♥ bid promises something and it looks a lot like a Standard American 2/1: Not GF, but a nice hand. In addition, the first round pass limits the hand, so it will have a good 9 to a bad 11 points. Now, there is a different reason why opener's 3♥ rebid should be forcing and not invitational. Responder has already limited his hand, 2♥ is not forcing and opener can pass with a third seat opener or a minimum hand. Opener doesn't need an invitational bid to ask whether responder has a "good 10 or a bad 10 count". If 10 points is enough for game then bid it; if it isn't then don't.

So, if NS would have been on the same wavelength, North could simply have bid 3♥, since logic dictates that it is forcing.

Rik

[Cyberyeti]

One advantage of the weak NT is that 1♠-2♥-2N is FG, so we can use it when not balanced and keep the bidding low.

If we trash the heart intermediates so the small hand decides not to open:

P
1♠-2♥
2N-3♦
3♥-4♦
4♠(KC♥)-5♦(2 without)

Now N knows partner has ♥Kxxxx ♦Axxxx and probably neither black K as it would take very little for this to be an opening bid (a stiff K♣ and no quacks is just about possible). You might just sign off in 5♥ if feeling very disciplined.

Our actual auction would be:

1♥-2♠(either single suited spade rock crusher or ♠HHxxx/♥Hxxx H=AKQ GF)
3♦(at least Q or xx ♠, otherwise natural)-3♥(support type)
3N(♦ cue, no ♠A/K)-4♣
4♥(denies a second diamond control)-4♠(KC)
5♦(2 without, no 6th heart)-

And now you know partner has ♥ Kxxxx the ♦Axxx(x) not K♦/K♠ so you're on a slightly more difficult guess than before as K♣ is more of a possibility