[manudude03]

---

MPs scoring. Who is to blame for ending in 3NT off the diamond suit?

[kuhchung]

EAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

[kuhchung]

3N shows a hand like x KJxxx QJxx xxx or something like that, not a doubleton in partner's primary suit, 4 card support in his secondary, and aces and nothing in the red suits

yes you might fabricate a 3C jump shift but if you are that worried about it you can preference to 3S

[neilkaz]

East's 3NT bid is the type of bid you make on this auction when looking for a new partner.

[Cyberyeti]

What do you want E to bid ?

Partner has shown 5♠/4♣ and too much to make a NF bid. 3N is a punt, but could be right, going past 3N could be totally wrong.

You could easily have a situation where 3N is cold but 5♣ founders on a 4-1 club break or you're 630/660 against 600/non laydown 620.

Give partner ♦QJx instead of ♥K10x for example and maybe add J♠.

I don't think it's easy, but oddly what I play works really well here:

We have exactly 2 hands where we open 1♣ 5-5 in the blacks, 1♣-1♥-2♠ is this hand minus K♥ and 1♣-1red-1♠-any-2♠ is this hand, in fact it may well go 1♣-1♥-1♠-3♣-3♥-4♣-4N(voidwood ♦ void, 4♦ would be KC)-5♥- and partner is known to be 2434 or similar with A♥/K♣ and 1-2 other points as we play that a 2434 10 count would start with an inverted raise and we have other bids for the other hands, so we're bidding 6 or 7 clubs, probably 7.

[wank]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-July-21, 17:50, said:

What do you want E to bid ?

3S. 3NT is absurd

[MrAce]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-July-21, 17:50, said:

What do you want E to bid ?

Partner has shown 5♠/4♣ and too much to make a NF bid. 3N is a punt, but could be right, going past 3N could be totally wrong.

You could easily have a situation where 3N is cold but 5♣ founders on a 4-1 club break or you're 630/660 against 600/non laydown 620.

Give partner ♦QJx instead of ♥K10x for example and maybe add J♠.

I think we can play 3♥ as...

a-6+ ♥
b- Fear to bid 3 NT.

Opener can bid 3 NT with the QJx ♦ and void ♥ or stiff ♥. If he raises ♥ suit and you hold the East hand in OP, you should be happy that you did not play 3 NT and can correct to 5♣ or 4♠

If we bid 3♠ as Wank suggests, opener will never know when 3 NT is right. After all responder could have KJTx ♦ and xxxx ♥

Another solution can be to use 3♦ over 3♣ as a relay bid.

[Phil]

Well, I'd never bid 3N. At MPS I don't want to give up on 3N...yet. 3D works well here.

Let's agree standard sucks. Knowing partner has 5 clubs is pretty huge.

[Cyberyeti]

MrAce, on 2016-July-21, 21:37, said:

I think we can play 3♥ as...

a-6+ ♥
b- Fear to bid 3 NT.

Opener can bid 3 NT with the QJx ♦ and void ♥ or stiff ♥. If he raises ♥ suit and you hold the East hand in OP, you should be happy that you did not play 3 NT and can correct to 5♣ or 4♠

If we bid 3♠ as Wank suggests, opener will never know when 3 NT is right. After all responder could have KJTx ♦ and xxxx ♥

Another solution can be to use 3♦ over 3♣ as a relay bid.

This is fair comment, but if you don't have these agreements, you have to find a bid. I'm not saying 3N is a good bid, just that it's not totally absurd.

[Tramticket]

We are in a game forcing auction after 3♣. A 3♥ bid shows values in hearts and leaves open 3NT, 4♠ or 5/6♣ as possible contracts.

3NT or 3♠ are too unilateral.

I agree with MrAce - 3♥ can be just showing heart values - it doesn't guarantee the weak hand with long hearts once a game forcing auction is established.

[ggwhiz]

neilkaz, on 2016-July-21, 17:18, said:

East's 3NT bid is the type of bid you make on this auction when looking for a new partner.

..... and before the next hand when your partner becomes violently ill.

3♥ still keeps 3nt in the picture if that's what partner bids and when they raise here, I can't go wrong even if I pass in 4♥ but that bid would show diamond shortness so when I remove it to clubs we may well get to the (small) slam.

[Winstonm]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-July-22, 02:51, said:

This is fair comment, but if you don't have these agreements, you have to find a bid. I'm not saying 3N is a good bid, just that it's not totally absurd.

You are right. It is completely absurd.

[Cyberyeti]

Winstonm, on 2016-July-22, 08:52, said:

You are right. It is completely absurd.

Well if I think my choices are:

3red - shows long suit and a heap (we don't play WJS)
3♠ gives partner no clue where my red suit values are and may encourage partner to bid a terrible 4♠ when 3N or 5/6♣ is the spot, I have no clue whether to remove
3N yuk
4/5♣ may already be past the top spot

because I don't have more sophisticated agreements about 3 red, I might punt 3N occasionally thinking there is no good bid so I'll just guess

[helene_t]

I would bid 3♥ but I am a bit worried about it. If partner raises it, I could go back to 4♠ but does that really show this kind of hand? Next time I have A-KQJxxx-xxx-Jxx and I am looking for a diamond control for a heart slam.

[MrAce]

helene_t, on 2016-July-22, 09:06, said:

I would bid 3♥ but I am a bit worried about it. If partner raises it, I could go back to 4♠ but does that really show this kind of hand? Next time I have A-KQJxxx-xxx-Jxx and I am looking for a diamond control for a heart slam.

You could have started 2 or 3 ♥ with those depending on system agreements, but if that was unavaliable, I do not think you should worry about it. You should pass 4 ♥ with the hand you gave as example.

KQJxx
Ax
xx
AKQx

KQJxx
Ax
Qx
AKxx

Are the type of hands pd will bid 4♥

KQJxx(x)
Ax(x)
x
AKQx


KQJxx
Ax
Ax
KQxx

Are the type of hands pd would bid 4♦ with, instead of simple raise of hearts. Pd's 4♦ should never be 5044 or 5035 6034 in this auction.

[ggwhiz]

helene_t, on 2016-July-22, 09:06, said:

I would bid 3♥ but I am a bit worried about it. If partner raises it, I could go back to 4♠ but does that really show this kind of hand? Next time I have A-KQJxxx-xxx-Jxx and I am looking for a diamond control for a heart slam.

Some awkwardness is the cost of keeping 3nt alive if partner bids it but I suspect it will be very rare for me not to be relatively comfortable with my follow ups including if partner drove to a 6 or even 7♥ contract on the moyse by trotting out big black next.

As for going back to 4♠, suppressing that club support has happened in my partnership and is now defined as a crime, excusable only by angling for 3nt as here. Not to mention the diamond pump on partners 5-card suit.

The next time hand looks like a 5♥ bid to me should partner raise.

[SteveMoe]

3N is atrocious. Much prefer 3♦ punt so West can continue. Even 3♥ is better than 3N.
West should not sit 3N with 5=0=3=5 3-loser. Both.

[rmnka447]

3 NT is egregious without a ♦ stop when West has shown 9+ black cards. It is putting cards (a ♦ stopper) in West's hand -- a bidding no-no if you can't infer they are there by bridge logic,

East's bid should be 3 ♥ which shows something in ♥. If West raises to 4 ♥, then East should carry on to 5 ♣.

[gszes]

100% east 3n is horribly grotesque. P chose 3c for a reason (vs say 2n/3n) so there is some sort of problem with one (or both) of the red sujits. That means 3n appears to be a horrible choice since it is guesswork at best but what other choices are there that better reflect this balanced 9 hcp hand (sort of what 3n sounds like).

3d unless this is artificial (no reason to suspect that here) it should at worst be "stuff" in diamonds and nothing much in hearts fro 3n purposes but could also be natural in the sense of length. No matter how you look at it this is diametrically opposed to what you want to portray with this hand. In fact this bid is actually worse than 3n since it sends the partnership on the road to destruction for no good reason.

3s downside is 3 fold 1. insufficient spade support 2. Does nothing to address potential problems for possible NT contract. 3. Hides your sides best asset (4 card club support) still this bid is better than 3d or 3n

4c vastly superior to the above since it reveals your sides best asset and leaves all sorts of room available for whatever opener wishes to do

5c being at max this seems like a shame but still hardly horrific rates better than 3d 3s or 3n

whats left???? is there ANY good bid available here.

If we swap around the heart and dia suit not a soul on the planet would have a problem with 3d so why is it so hard to imagine
3h
is the right thing to do here? Even if opener supports hearts we can convert to clubs and opener will realize our 3h bid conveyed a dia weakeness that might be useful.

3h 10
4c 7
5c 5
3s 4
3n 3
4s 2
3d 0

don't ask for any credit for 6c or 7c since I don't readily give any credit for las vegas bids that happen to work.

[Fluffy]

East knows partner has short in a red suit, whatever the suit he rather plays a suit contract.