[smerriman]

---

It seems Lycier got his wish, and GIB no longer uses total points.

[1eyedjack]

North has 12 total points, South has 15. Both precisely as described by GIB, yes?

[smerriman]

1eyedjack, on 2016-July-15, 15:47, said:

North has 12 total points, South has 15. Both precisely as described by GIB, yes?

North has 12 HCP. Is a 6 card trump suit (or, if you prefer shortness points, two doubletons), worthless in total points?

[1eyedjack]

smerriman, on 2016-July-15, 15:55, said:

North has 12 HCP. Is a 6 card trump suit (or, if you prefer shortness points, two doubletons), worthless in total points?

Yes, according to GIB. It does not count any length points and it does not add a shortage point for a doubleton if it has an honour in it.

Hey, I did not program it. But at least here it is being internally systemically consistent.

[smerriman]

Ah, I wasn't aware of those exact spacifics. In that case not a bug, but a flaw of the system. Perhaps 11 card fits could add at least a point or two

[1eyedjack]

Yes, you find it quoted here

http://tinyurl.com/zzm6m2r

Quote

High card points, using 4321 count
<li>Total points = HCP + short-suit points (void=3, singleton=2, doubleton=1 – subtract 1 for each short suit with HCP)

[johnu]

Madness

[lycier]

smerriman, on 2016-July-15, 15:21, said:

---

It seems Lycier got his wish, and GIB no longer uses total points.

What's wrong with TPs?

Now let's see my simulating hand.

---

Result : 4♠S-1

How about it?
Would you still think this is a issue which is worth of discussing ?

[smerriman]

lycier, on 2016-July-15, 17:43, said:

Result : 4♠S-1

How about it?
Would you still think this is a issue which is worth of discussing ?

I have no idea what that has to do with anything.

[lycier]

That's to say 3♠ is a correct systemic bidding according to Gib's TP evaluation on its CC.

[smerriman]

Yes, I know, see the previous messages..

[cloa513]

smerriman, on 2016-July-15, 15:21, said:

---

It seems Lycier got his wish, and GIB no longer uses total points.

North has 14 TP- GIB can't count TP.

[Stephen Tu]

lycier, on 2016-July-15, 17:43, said:

What's wrong with TPs?

We think it's a little too conservative in devaluing doubleton Kings and aces, and should GF with the north hand instead of only inviting. Perhaps the TP formula can be tweaked a bit, like maybe not -1 from doubleton aces, doubleton kings, deducting only from say doubleton qs and Js, singleton kings. Or at least a smaller deduction than -1, like half only. And maybe a bonus point for the 6 cd trump.

Quote

Now let's see my simulating hand.

---

Result : 4♠S-1

How about it?
Would you still think this is a issue which is worth of discussing ?

Yes, absolutely. Because despite the double dummy result, game is excellent single dummy, and I want to be there every day of the week since I don't get to examine the opponent's hands during the bidding. You only need one of two finesses, ace of hearts onside or Q of club onside, and have extra chances of opponent leading away from CQ, or them not attacking diamonds in time while you set up clubs for a diamond pitch.

It's not so much a problem with the actual South hand since it was just quite good enough to raise to game, but if South were 5233/5323 13 HCP, same honors, I think most pass the limit raise, and game is almost as good and still excellent, still 1 out of 2 hooks, only lost chance to pitch diamond on club if given time.

Game is probably 85+% DD against most South 5332 12-13 worst hands which pass 3S. It can't be right to value JT98xx Kx Ax Axx as equivalent in trick taking power to JT98 Kxx Axx Axx, counting both as 12 TP.

[Lovera]

About detraction it'd be: -1 for 1) an hand without Aces (only for opener), 2) King or Queen or Jack singleton, 3) Doubleton with Q or J plus a card (Qx, Jx) but not the Ace, 4) Qxx or Jxx or both those one, 5) shape 4-3-3-3 for raising trump, 6) raising trump with three cards, 7) King or Queen in unfavoureable position (from Stayman system: Table of valutation of the hand pag.8)(Lovera)

[lycier]

cloa513, on 2016-July-15, 21:20, said:

smerriman, on 2016-July-15, 15:21, said:

---

It seems Lycier got his wish, and GIB no longer uses total points.

North has 14 TP- GIB can't count TP.

Really?
Actually North only has 12 TPs instead of 14 TPs according to Gib TP evaluation.

[Lovera]

Stephen Tu, on 2016-July-15, 23:15, said:

We think it's a little too conservative in devaluing doubleton Kings and aces, and should GF with the north hand instead of only inviting. Perhaps the TP formula can be tweaked a bit, like maybe not -1 from doubleton aces, doubleton kings, deducting only from say doubleton qs and Js, singleton kings. Or at least a smaller deduction than -1, like half only. And maybe a bonus point for the 6 cd trump.



Yes, absolutely. Because despite the double dummy result, game is excellent single dummy, and I want to be there every day of the week since I don't get to examine the opponent's hands during the bidding. You only need one of two finesses, ace of hearts onside or Q of club onside, and have extra chances of opponent leading away from CQ, or them not attacking diamonds in time while you set up clubs for a diamond pitch.

It's not so much a problem with the actual South hand since it was just quite good enough to raise to game, but if South were 5233/5323 13 HCP, same honors, I think most pass the limit raise, and game is almost as good and still excellent, still 1 out of 2 hooks, only lost chance to pitch diamond on club if given time.

Game is probably 85+% DD against most South 5332 12-13 worst hands which pass 3S. It can't be right to value JT98xx Kx Ax Axx as equivalent in trick taking power to JT98 Kxx Axx Axx, counting both as 12 TP.

I am agree with you on second part of post and also with smerriman in post #5. I think at this stage that programmers are valuting it. Infact is not usual that responder has trump longer that opener and it has to be considered. Lacking indication 4♠ is on average. If West and East hands are reversed almost 11 tricks are realized. Than let's be quite and waiting.

[lycier]

smerriman, on 2016-July-15, 15:21, said:

---

It seems Lycier got his wish, and GIB no longer uses total points.

Stephen Tu, on 2016-July-15, 23:15, said:

We think it's a little too conservative in devaluing doubleton Kings and aces, and should GF with the north hand instead of only inviting. Perhaps the TP formula can be tweaked a bit, like maybe not -1 from doubleton aces, doubleton kings, deducting only from say doubleton qs and Js, singleton kings. Or at least a smaller deduction than -1, like half only. And maybe a bonus point for the 6 cd trump.


Yes, absolutely. Because despite the double dummy result, game is excellent single dummy, and I want to be there every day of the week since I don't get to examine the opponent's hands during the bidding. You only need one of two finesses, ace of hearts onside or Q of club onside, and have extra chances of opponent leading away from CQ, or them not attacking diamonds in time while you set up clubs for a diamond pitch.

It's not so much a problem with the actual South hand since it was just quite good enough to raise to game, but if South were 5233/5323 13 HCP, same honors, I think most pass the limit raise, and game is almost as good and still excellent, still 1 out of 2 hooks, only lost chance to pitch diamond on club if given time.

Game is probably 85+% DD against most South 5332 12-13 worst hands which pass 3S. It can't be right to value JT98xx Kx Ax Axx as equivalent in trick taking power to JT98 Kxx Axx Axx, counting both as 12 TP.

I never disagree.
1- 3♠ is a normal bidding according to Gib CC in the " OP " hand.
North only has 12 TPs even with 6-card support, however according to Gib CC and Gib TP evaluation, 3♠ is a correct bidding.
2- If you never agree with my opinion, what else?
You think North should bid to game, however would you know what you meant?
You require to revise Gib CC - no longer use 4♣/♦ splinter, renew to define 4♣/♦ as reverse swiss raise convention so as to show exactly this sorts of hands.
Note here Gibs need a playable programme of action, don't need a bidding based on logic judgement.

[Stephen Tu]

For those of us that think the North hand is a game force, it is sufficient for North to bid 2nt Jacoby. Adopting Swiss raises is unnecessary.

[lycier]

Stephen Tu, on 2016-July-17, 22:28, said:

For those of us that think the North hand is a game force, it is sufficient for North to bid 2nt Jacoby. Adopting Swiss raises is unnecessary.

Your answer is a bit far-fetched.
Why is the North hand a game force?
The main reason is North hand has over 12 TPs in fact. That's to say there is a Dummy Point problem in the North hand :
Dummy Point = TP + shortness points when there is good trumph fit on the dummy hand.
So it is a game force because there is 14 TPs of Dummy Point in the North hand.
So in another word, the count method on Gib Dummy TP evaluation needs to be improved.

Any ideas?

[Stephen Tu]

lycier, on 2016-July-18, 04:00, said:

Your answer is a bit far-fetched.

You might want to explain exactly what you consider far-fetched, since you apparently agree with our evaluation that North should GF. You object to Jacoby 2nt? Why?

I don't think North should be discounted to 12 TP whether it is responder or opener. To me it is worth 14 approximately, and if this hand was first to open, and partner is giving me a 10-12 limit raise I am definitely accepting.