[dickiegera]

---

We play 2♦ to be 4th suit forcing to game

What is the meaning of 3♦?

Thank you

[Stephen Tu]

5-5 invitational, 5-5 GF, or some sort of spade raise, depending on agreements. If 2d is a GF I would assume 5-5 inv.

[SteveMoe]

Splinter raise of ♠.

[Fluffy]

5-5 GF is standard on mayeur cinquieme land.

[GrahamJson]

If you play 2D as GF then I would take 3D to be a splinter in support of spades (this is the Bridge Magazine standard system used in its Bidding Challenge treatment). Of course it could have other meanings, by agreement

[Caitlynne]

If 2D is game forcing, the only commonly seen agreements are the following:

1. Splinter raise to 3S showing shortness in diamonds (direct shortness show);

2. Splinter raise to 3S showing shortness in clubs (indirect shortness show by bidding the fragment);

3. 5 or 6 hearts plus 5 diamonds with highly construtive to invitational values (e.g., 9 or 10 HCP) - i.e., natural and non-forcing.

You need to discuss this auction and decide as a partnership. However, without discussion, I would think he last alternative should be assumed for two reasons:

1. There is no way to show this hand - you have to punt with 2NT which is a pretty serious distortion of the distributional nature of your hand as well as an overbid in terms of the honor strength.

2. If an undiscussed bid arises and it could conceivably have a natural meaning, then the partnership default agreement SHOULD be that the bid is natural until it is discussed and agreed to be defined otherwise.

[GrahamJson]

The last post, which is completely reasonable, just highlights how different players have different views on what is "normal". I think the main lesson of the hand is not to make bids that are potentially ambiguous, particularly with an unfamiliar partner. So in this case, if you have a splinter either bid 4D, which I think nearly all experienced players will recognise as showing a shortage, or make a simple raise. With the 55 hand either bid and rebid diamonds, with the risk of getting too high, or find another bid, even if it not the perfect one.

[MrAce]

SteveMoe, on 2016-June-30, 18:35, said:

Splinter raise of ♠.

This is common mistake to take it as splinter, since 4♦ is splinter. Unless of course you agree to play both of them as splinter and require different strength for each.

[MrAce]

Caitlynne, on 2016-July-01, 07:35, said:

If 2D is game forcing, the only commonly seen agreements are the following:

......
.......

3. 5 or 6 hearts plus 5 diamonds with highly construtive to invitational values (e.g., 9 or 10 HCP) - i.e., natural and non-forcing.

You need to discuss this auction and decide as a partnership. However, without discussion, I would think he last alternative should be assumed for two reasons:

1. There is no way to show this hand - you have to punt with 2NT which is a pretty serious distortion of the distributional nature of your hand as well as an overbid in terms of the honor strength.

Unless you play XYZ.

[MrAce]

Stephen TU explained reasonable meanings of what 3♦ can be.
In addition to to his list I can add

4♥+6♦ par bid (weak hand - sign off) You do not need this if you play xyz though.

[johnu]

GrahamJson, on 2016-July-01, 04:19, said:

If you play 2D as GF then I would take 3D to be a splinter in support of spades (this is the Bridge Magazine standard system used in its Bidding Challenge treatment). Of course it could have other meanings, by agreement

In the old BWS, 2♦ was forcing for only 1 round and 3♦ was a 5-5 game force. 2♦ rebidding 3♦ was invitational.

The new BWS 2017 changed so all 4th suit bids are game forcing (by unpassed hand). So far, 3♦ (or 3♣ if 4th suit was clubs) hasn't been clarified but IMO should be invitational since there isn't a way to show an invitational hand otherwise.

BWS 2017 doesn't use XYZ unless opener rebids 1NT.

[MrAce]

johnu, on 2016-July-01, 16:12, said:

BWS 2017 doesn't use XYZ unless opener rebids 1NT.

You can not use XYZ if opener rebids 1 NT. It is called 2 way check-back, minor forcing. (some call it XYNT)

XYZ indicates that 3 different suits is bid at 1 level. Not NT.

Of course they are almost twin conventions.

[johnu]

MrAce, on 2016-July-01, 16:22, said:

You can not use XYZ if opener rebids 1 NT. It is called 2 way check-back, minor forcing. (some call it XYNT)

Google your typical sources.

1X 1Y
1Z

1Z is any rebid at the 1 level.

[gane32000]

Limit bid in spades???

[mike777]

MrAce, on 2016-July-01, 16:22, said:

You can not use XYZ if opener rebids 1 NT. It is called 2 way check-back, minor forcing. (some call it XYNT)

XYZ indicates that 3 different suits is bid at 1 level. Not NT.

Of course they are almost twin conventions.

to be fair playing XYZ then any 1x1y1z including nt is still the xyz convention.

In XYZ 3d is not only game force but shows slam interest, now granted in XYZ this would be a very rare auction in fact so rare I doubt I have ever seen it, which is why I did not bother to post it earlier.

[SteveMoe]

MrAce, on 2016-July-01, 11:01, said:

This is common mistake to take it as splinter, since 4♦ is splinter. Unless of course you agree to play both of them as splinter and require different strength for each.

..or 4♦ showing a void
Playing 4♦ as the "first" splinter wastes control bid space unnecessarily.

[MrAce]

SteveMoe, on 2016-July-01, 19:46, said:

..or 4♦ showing a void
Playing 4♦ as the "first" splinter wastes control bid space unnecessarily.

Not really. Splinter hands in this auction are very rare. I would never spare this bid for it.

[MrAce]

dbl post