[Lovera]

Is it called when is needed to transfer at a minor (club or diamond) suit. There is a site that shows how to manage it clearly: http://tommybridgebl...-transfers.html
This is another one about this argoument (that i presume anyone of us already applies): http://www.davidbakh...bridge-articles

[steve2005]

There are many ways to do 4-way transfers other than those listed. I'm sure each has its merits and a lot depends on your 1N range and rest of system and how things fit.

After a 2♠ transfer you can use 2N or 3♣ to say you like ♣. I don't think it makes a bid difference which you use.

Same with 2N as a ♦ transfer.

[Lovera]

 steve2005, on 2016-June-25, 20:52, said:

There are many ways to do 4-way transfers other than those listed. I'm sure each has its merits and a lot depends on your 1N range and rest of system and how things fit.

After a 2♠ transfer you can use 2N or 3♣ to say you like ♣. I don't think it makes a bid difference which you use.

Same with 2N as a ♦ transfer.

Thanks to have answered (and i hope that anyone other wants to say his/her thinking about). This conventional method is infact not the lonely and anyone can like another (more simple) gadget. To define question: i am talking about Four way transers as indicated and developed/showed in "No Trump Bidding" that you can see here http://www.pattayabr...idding_main.htm
This book is already available because for every x in blue you can have a download. What i am talking, as you can see other transfer possibilities, is in part 4 from pag. 166 to 200.

[fromageGB]

My understanding of the term 4-way transfers, or 4-suit transfers, is that you use 4 bids to transfer to specific individual suits. One bid which could be either minor does not count. 4-way transfers are usually ♠/NT for ♣/♦, or NT/♣ for ♣/♦.

Your pattaya reference misses this last option (or so it seemed to me), and 2♠ if used as minor suit stayman does not need to be game forcing.

[Lovera]

 fromageGB, on 2016-June-26, 05:51, said:

My understanding of the term 4-way transfers, or 4-suit transfers, is that you use 4 bids to transfer to specific individual suits. One bid which could be either minor does not count. 4-way transfers are usually ♠/NT for ♣/♦, or NT/♣ for ♣/♦.

Your pattaya reference misses this last option (or so it seemed to me), and 2♠ if used as minor suit stayman does not need to be game forcing.

No, it is only the first:♠ for club and NT for diamond. Then the in-between is the positive option whilest (and usually it is so) explicitally indicating of suit of transfer is negative(=weak, referred to support of transferred suit i.e. club) or the "second" step (♠ to ♣, NT to ♦). Now the already structured architecture of this system of bidding can be usefull almost for referring considering vary indicated situations and if anyone think to reverse it (=i.e. ♠ trans. for club with NT as neg.ve option instead of positive) can have any problem. En passant: the first three pages " check on some [ n.8 alternative] common uses of these 2♠ and 2NT bids .."(see 4 Minor suit Transfers).

[nige1]

I like to play similar transfer methods after 1N and 2N openers, to reduce memory strain. My current preference over 2N is

• 3♦/3♥/4♣/4♦/4♥ = TFR, (Then, after 4-level transfers, next suit is Kickback).
• 3♠ = ASK. (3N = MIN, 4♣ = MAX. Now, again, 4♦ = Kickback, setting ♣s as trumps).

[Lovera]

As told you can bid, as "super accept", the in-between suit (2NT over 2♠ or 3♣ over 2NT respectly for transfer to club or diamond suit) if you have togheter these conditions by 1NT opener : 1) an hand with almost 16 points 2) in the suit for support almost Qxx or more. Then, not having both this two conditions you must simply bids a "normal"accept (1NT- 2♠, 3♣ or for diamond 1NT-2NT, 3♦). However i suggest because more known and simply to watch before the transfert to major suit (2♦ transfer to 2♥ and 2♥ to 2♠) it being similar the bid developing concept for the minor ones.

[steve2005]

Some people use 3♣/3♦ as natural to take off the pressure of the transfer bid.
Weak Invitational and even strong are possible meanings.

[fromageGB]

 Lovera, on 2016-June-26, 06:34, said:

No, it is only the first:♠ for club and NT for diamond.

Are you saying that playing 2♦=♥, 2♥=♠, 2NT=♣, 3♣=♦ is NOT 4-suit transfers?

[Lovera]

 fromageGB, on 2016-June-26, 10:31, said:

Are you saying that playing 2♦=♥, 2♥=♠, 2NT=♣, 3♣=♦ is NOT 4-suit transfers?

Yes, the first two bidding for major is two-way with next step that transfer to heart or spade but for minor there is a different statement explained in book. Infact for these suits we have two steps for transfer: 2 ♠ and two steps after 3 ♣ and so for diamond starting 2NT (this in case of a "normal" accept). 4 way transfers: http://www.pattayabr...nsfers_main.htm

[Lovera]

Now let's retourning about the holding when is the case of "super accept": you must have Qxx or "more" that ,is told, "anything xxxx" This four card(=xxxx) seems to me having low frequence but, instead, if there is an honor (Hxxx or more) is interest by 1NT opener to indicate at first eventuality it being a suit also and anything is changed if insert this holding termed as "super accept" of four cards while the other one is "super accept" with three cards. In this way you can bid as usually if there are four cards in a max hand by 1NT opener for 2♦ as transfer to heart bidding 3♥ to indicate it. For minor is not possible to jump 'cause developing in bidding and you have to use at 4th level it (1NT-2♠ trans to club, 2NT(=super accept)-3x, 4♣(=.. of four cards Hxxx in club suit)- etc.

[miamijd]

If you're going to play 2s for clubs and 2nt for d, you should play 2s as range finder or clubs. That is, you his 2s on NT invite hands and hands that would otherwise bid 4nt as a slam invite

Opener bids 2nt with a min & 3c with an accept. Then responder can pass, correct to 3c with a mini, bid 3nt over 3c or bid 3x to show a gf with clubs and shortness in the bid suit

The advantage here is that 2c goes back to guaranteeing a 4 card major, which opens up more possibilities for auctions like 1nt. 2c. 2d/h 2s

Cheers
Mike

[Stefan_O]

 steve2005, on 2016-June-25, 20:52, said:

Same with 2N as a ♦ transfer.

Playing 2NT as part of the transfer structure (rather than natural invite) has a very distinct drawback,
in that you then need to bid 2♣ stayman with a balanced invite, even if you have no 4 card major.
This often causes the opener to reveal information that is useful only to opps.

Additionally, you allow them to make a lead-double of 2♣ or overcall at the 2 level over 2♣.

I strongly advice against that approach.
Much more efficient to play 2NT as natural invite.

[miamijd]

 Stefan_O, on 2016-June-26, 17:37, said:

Playing 2NT as part of the transfer structure (rather than natural invite) has a very distinct drawback,
in that you then need to bid 2♣ stayman with a balanced invite, even if you have no 4 card major.
This often causes the opener to reveal information that is useful only to opps.

Additionally, you allow them to make a lead-double of 2♣ or overcall at the 2 level over 2♣.

I strongly advice against that approach.
Much more efficient to play 2NT as natural invite.

No you don't. See my post above re 2s as range finder or clubs

Mike

[Vampyr]

 steve2005, on 2016-June-25, 20:52, said:

After a 2♠ transfer you can use 2N or 3♣ to say you like ♣. I don't think it makes a bid difference which you use.

Same with 2N as a ♦ transfer.

It makes a big difference. You must bid the suit when you like it. Otherwise you will fail to find your probable best fit when weak with 5/5 minors.

[msjennifer]

A very nice 2C Relay ( not Stayman)which helps to find out whether 1NT opener has 15/bad16, Or 16good/17 HCP and major and minor suit holdings below the level of 2 NT or 3 of a suit and named "The Explorer Relay " has been developed by my mentor.Included in it are four suit transfers with a way to find out openers 15/1bad16 or 16 good/17 .The 2 suited hands with a slam ambition like a 4 card major and a 5 + minor which are slightly difficult to bid with a slam ambition with Weakish six carded minor or major,strong six carded M/m with slam ambition are all covered in this Explorer Relay.I am not able to give the detailed development as it runs into 20 pages.It is only for advanced and experts.Our pair employing this relay method were the only pair to bid a grand slam by literally counting 13 tricks ,with all cards known almost double dummy style,in the 8 teams all play all finals of a zonal tournament.Not even once has this method failed.
I would ,humbly and politely ,request all beginners and intermediates to give a trial to using Baron and transfers instead of Stayman and transfers so that minor suited games or slams in 4/4 fit are not missed.

[fromageGB]

 Stefan_O, on 2016-June-26, 17:37, said:

Playing 2NT as part of the transfer structure (rather than natural invite) has a very distinct drawback,
in that you then need to bid 2♣ stayman with a balanced invite, even if you have no 4 card major.
This often causes the opener to reveal information that is useful only to opps.

Additionally, you allow them to make a lead-double of 2♣ or overcall at the 2 level over 2♣.

I strongly advice against that approach.
Much more efficient to play 2NT as natural invite.

Much more efficient to not have an invitation. Then you can use 2♠ as minor suit Stayman to find the better fit when you are both minors, weak or not, and also when you have one minor but need to know the degree of support before you decide the direction to go in. Now 2NT and 3♣ as pure transfers, weak or strong, give the advantage of making opener play the hand that you forego if you play 2-under transfers.

[Zelandakh]

 steve2005, on 2016-June-26, 10:18, said:

Some people use 3♣/3♦ as natural to take off the pressure of the transfer bid.
Weak Invitational and even strong are possible meanings.

I do this in a 3-way transfer scheme. The immediate 3m responses are natural and slammy while 2♠ is either a raise to 2NT or weak with clubs or GF with clubs and a second suit. Hands with diamonds and a major go through 2♣ and 2NT is then used for a specific hand type that would otherwise be awkward (5♠4♥ INV). This option, of using the transfer with 2 suits rather than only with a one-suiter, is one that does not get discussed very often. Yet it is absolutely fundamental to how the rest of the structure is built. Similarly, I do not know of many pairs treating clubs and diamonds differently as in my scheme. This is always something that has surprised me because it is technically slightly more efficient.

As was already noted, incorporating a 2NT raise within the 2♠ response is also a popular variation in 4-way transfer schemes. If doing this the 2NT rebid simply declines this invite rather than showing and sort of like or dislike for clubs. Similarly, some bundle weak with both minors into 2NT showing diamonds. Neither of these additions is required for 4-way transfers but the cost of them is relatively low. In any case, what was the question? Or were you just informing us about the possibility?

[Lovera]

As noted the "sistemic" or diffuse use of transfer method for all level bidding is "almost" an heaving in this showed developing where, of converse, a major simplicity in bidding can take more fruibilty certainly needed for everything that has a merit getting at a gain. Than any natural bidding is on this road. Another one that i dislike is the use of 6-RKB and any specific (although functional probably for the author) bidding at third level. I don 't want discuss what i presented but try to have a more simply bidding "on the same track".

[helene_t]

 Vampyr, on 2016-June-26, 21:04, said:

It makes a big difference. You must bid the suit when you like it. Otherwise you will fail to find your probable best fit when weak with 5/5 minors.

Yes but bidding the suit when you don't like it increasesthe cchance of right siding the contract. Maybe best to play it differently for clubs and diamonds.