[bridgepali]

I find when the requisite trump footprint is 5/2 or 4/3 to have the combined hand point count correspond with the bid level ranges requires three additional points (The value of one trick). In other words to make a three level (pt. range 23-25) contract requires 26-28 pts.; a four level (pt. range 26-28) contract 29-31 pts.


Example 5/2:

---

Bidquest:

Abiding by the 5cardMABBS South opens declaring five hearts and at least 13 pts. North having 13 pts.


(16 high card minus 3 for missing card from requisite trump footprint) bids hearts at the four level ( pt. range 26-28) knowing the combined hands have at least 26 pts. South's 1 pt. not declared in the opening bid brings the combined hand point total to midpoint of the four level bid range. If North had not had the 3 pts. to make up for the missing card from the trump strain, a four level contract can still be made provided a trick taking tactic having the value of one trick, like a finesse or discard, were found and successfully consummated.


Example 4/3:

---

Bidquest:
Abiding by the 5cardMABBS South opens declaring four diamonds and at least 13 pts. North having 12 pts. (15 high card minus 3 for missing card from requisite trump footprint) and four spades, bids four spades at the two level(pt. range 20-22). South not having four spades, but knowing by North's bid the combined hands have 24 pts. (three level bid range) bids three hearts. North knowing the combined hands are short of a four level bid by 1 pt. bids four hearts speculating that South has 1 pt. not declared. If South doesn't have the 1 pt., the contract can still be made provided a trick taking tactic having the value of one trick, like a finesse or discard, were found and consummated.

I also find that anytime one of the combined hands has less than three cards of trump, even though the other has five or more, three additional points are needed to have the point count match-up to it's corresponding bid level range.

Watch for Talking Pts.?????

[johnu]

Outstanding bidding and hand evaluation. Where can I buy a book to learn this system?

[Stephen Tu]

I don't know why you bother to produce these ludicrous auctions that should never be posted in a beginner forum as if they were plausible. No one bids like this.

As for your general thesis that bigger trump fits take less hcp to make game, this is true to some extent, but not to the full 3 pts per extra card fit as you claim. It is not nearly that much. Also many other factors matter, extra trumps don't help as much if it is not accompanied by shortness to allow multiple ruffs for example. Better players take lots of factors into account to upgrade and downgrade their hands, degree of fit is only one of them and not to the degree you are suggesting especially with flat hands. Extra trump with side void is very useful, extra trump in a 4333 hand is only worth a fraction of that.

Are you trying to educate others (in which case I suggest you don't bother), or are you asking if we agree with your "talking points", asking if it is valid?

Yes 9 cd fit is better than 8 cd fit, and should be bid more aggressively, but not +3 by itself. As for your 7 cd fits in this post, no one will end up in suit contract. When there is no 8 cd major fit, one almost always ends up playing some number of notrump. Unless auction can reveal unstopped suit or there is a huge minor fit with shapely hands.

[neilkaz]

johnu, on 2016-June-22, 15:00, said:

Outstanding bidding and hand evaluation. Where can I buy a book to learn this system?

I know that I am supposed to be "nice" when I post in NB, but I'd take said book and leave it in my bathroom just in case in run out of toilet paper. I do hope that the mods start taking more action to tone down some of the nonsense currently pervading these forums here.

[diana_eva]

neilkaz, on 2016-June-22, 19:43, said:

(...) I do hope that the mods start taking more action to tone down some of the nonsense currently pervading these forums here.

Moved the whole "Talking points" series to Natural Bidding Discussion

[Vampyr]

neilkaz, on 2016-June-22, 19:43, said:

I know that I am supposed to be "nice" when I post in NB, but I'd take said book and leave it in my bathroom just in case in run out of toilet paper. I do hope that the mods start taking more action to tone down some of the nonsense currently pervading these forums here.

why are you trying to spoil johnu's comment? He said it so much more cleverly.

[diana_eva]

Vampyr, on 2016-June-22, 23:14, said:

why are you trying to spoil johnu's comment? He said it so much more cleverly.

I think he was simply bothered with this being in the NB. Sarcasm is fun, but an open request to "do something" is preferable for the NB forum.

[bridgepali]

Hey Bridge Pal:

Thank you for viewing Talking Pts. For the start of a new points topic, a show and tell on how points meld hands into conventions, go to Talking Pts. X?.

[jogs]

Stephen Tu, on 2016-June-22, 15:17, said:

I don't know why you bother to produce these ludicrous auctions that should never be posted in a beginner forum as if they were plausible. No one bids like this.

As for your general thesis that bigger trump fits take less hcp to make game, this is true to some extent, but not to the full 3 pts per extra card fit as you claim. It is not nearly that much. Also many other factors matter, extra trumps don't help as much if it is not accompanied by shortness to allow multiple ruffs for example. Better players take lots of factors into account to upgrade and downgrade their hands, degree of fit is only one of them and not to the degree you are suggesting especially with flat hands. Extra trump with side void is very useful, extra trump in a 4333 hand is only worth a fraction of that.

Are you trying to educate others (in which case I suggest you don't bother), or are you asking if we agree with your "talking points", asking if it is valid?

Yes 9 cd fit is better than 8 cd fit, and should be bid more aggressively, but not +3 by itself. As for your 7 cd fits in this post, no one will end up in suit contract. When there is no 8 cd major fit, one almost always ends up playing some number of notrump. Unless auction can reveal unstopped suit or there is a huge minor fit with shapely hands.

Actually an extra trump(assuming 8, 9, or 10) is worth a full trick or 3 HCP. Trumps and HCP are only the first two parameters used to estimate tricks. Flatness reduces tricks. Skewness increases tricks. These other factors improves the original estimates.

With the OP's 1st example nearly every reasonable pair would bid.
1♥ - 1♠
2NT - 3NT.

[Vampyr]

jogs, on 2016-September-21, 15:02, said:

Actually an extra trump(assuming 8, 9, or 10) is worth a full trick or 3 HCP. Trumps and HCP are only the first two parameters used to estimate tricks. Flatness reduces tricks. Skewness increases tricks. These other factors improves the original estimates.

With the OP's 1st example nearly every reasonable pair would bid.
1♥ - 1♠
2NT - 3NT.

2NT does not seem very reasonable on a balanced 13-count.

[ochinko]

Vampyr, on 2016-September-22, 03:26, said:

2NT does not seem very reasonable on a balanced 13-count.

When a director is called, both North and and South will have a lot to explain about the way they reached 3NT.

[jogs]

Vampyr, on 2016-September-22, 03:26, said:

2NT does not seem very reasonable on a balanced 13-count.

Sorry, meant 1NT.

[Kaitlyn S]

jogs, on 2016-September-21, 15:02, said:

Actually an extra trump(assuming 8, 9, or 10) is worth a full trick or 3 HCP. Trumps and HCP are only the first two parameters used to estimate tricks. Flatness reduces tricks. Skewness increases tricks. These other factors improves the original estimates.

With the OP's 1st example nearly every reasonable pair would bid.
1♥ - 1♠
1NT - 3NT.

Not sure. Many pairs raise as opener on 3 cards when they have a side worthless doubleton. While I prefer 1NT myself, there are pairs that would bid 1H-1S-2S-3NT. The final call caters to opener having 3-card support, and opener would correct to 4S with 4.

Similarly the second auction would go 1D-1S-2S-3NT for pairs favoring these 3-card raises; most pairs would bid 1D-1S-1NT-3NT.

Now, if the OP wants to make the point that extra points are required for a 7-card fit; he has planted a seed. Here, let me help you out.

---

Note that N-S have 27 HCP here but in light of South's 3D bid rather than 2NT, North assumes that either clubs aren't stopped or that a club lead, indicated by the auction, will scuttle 3NT even if South has a club card, so South makes a reasonable decision to pass 3D.

At some tables, North will open 1NT and South will be 2C, Stayman, doubled by West. Assuming that the pair has tools to stay out of 3NT without a club stopper, South might take a reasonable shot to play in a 4-3 spade fit to score a game bonus. As you can see, you need 3-3 spades and no diamond ruff. 4S is a horrible game despite 27 points. If N-S had one more spade and one less diamond, 4S would make with 3-2 spades and the diamond ruff would be a lot less likely. I presume that this was the point that bridgepali was trying to make.

[jogs]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-September-22, 08:48, said:

Not sure. Many pairs raise as opener on 3 cards when they have a side worthless doubleton. While I prefer 1NT myself, there are pairs that would bid 1H-1S-2S-3NT. The final call caters to opener having 3-card support, and opener would correct to 4S with 4.

Would any reasonable pair have bid 1♥ - 4♥ as the OP suggested?

[Kaitlyn S]

jogs, on 2016-September-22, 09:53, said:

Would any reasonable pair have bid 1♥ - 4♥ as the OP suggested?

I don't think that even the OP would bid 1H-4H.

A friend who has been here long enough to get the client says that he sometimes checks the hands that he makes up for classes by making sure that some obscure line doesn't let the wrong contract make, which would embarrass him in class. He uses a Bridge Movie (someday I'll figure out what that is, but I don't think I can do it anyway with the browser version) to create the hand and then uses the GIB analysis to look for snags in his teaching deal. Do you think he would key in 1H-1S-2D-2H-2NT-3D-3H-4H if that is the auction he expects? Of course not! He has North open 4H, an absolutely absurd bid, so he can test the play sooner.

I am giving the OP the benefit of the doubt and guessing he did something similar. Yes, all sane pairs would get to 3NT, but for the purposes of his argument, he wanted the pair in 4H. Mind you, he could have saved keystrokes by having the auction be a 4H opening bid rather than 1H-4H. Maybe it didn't occur to him. Then on the second one, he might have realized that people would get hung up on the bidding (and oh was he right!) so he decided to put in more rounds?

We all agree that both auctions are ridiculous. He either (1) already knew that but needed to get the contract into a trump suit to show his point, or (2) didn't know it but is fully aware of it now. I hope that in case (1) he realizes that he has to choose his examples more carefully, OR just state the contract; which I'm not sure the hand diagram widget will let you do here, or in (2) will learn some basic bidding so that his examples will be consistent with bridge reality. For he is trying to make some general hand evaluation points, and his discussion is getting derailed by a discussion on how horrible his auctions are.

Jogs, I don't mean to take away from your point that his auctions "need work" to put it charitably. You made a statement which I thought was misleading and I corrected it, however I totally agree with you that "nearly every reasonable pair would bid 1H-1S-1NT-3NT" is much closer to the truth than that some pairs would bid 1H-4H. You should note that I am not trying to flame you; I did change your 2NT typo to 1NT when quoting you.

However, I'm still trying out if the OP is someone who has some reasonable points to make (or thinks he does) or is just a troll. At this point, I'm leaning toward the former, but I really question whether he has the bridge knowledge to make the points he's trying to make. On the other hand, if I assume he is legitimately put forth an idea, I'm not going to be the one to discourage it. However, if he thinks that 1H-4H is an auction that bridge players might have, I would strongly advise him to pick up a book on beginning bridge. The problem is that I don't know if that's true or if he just was trying to save time, and ironically he ended up derailing his thread.

[bridgepali]

Thank you Kaitlyn S. I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but my intentions are honorable and your account of what I wanted to convey is right on point.

I find your post/thread "Bidding Problems" to be most informative.