[P_Marlowe]

 Liversidge, on 2016-June-14, 00:17, said:

Do the criteria for opening 2♣ change with a two suited hand. For example, S AKTxx H AK D AKxxx C x has (I think) 10 playing tricks and 6 defensive tricks. Are all the fourth and fifth cards in the long suits reliable playing tricks. And the fit might turn out to be in diamonds.

Opening 2-suited hand with 2C is problematic, the exception being, with touching suits,
and the higher ranking suit is longer.
In short, you should be wary opening a 2-suited (let alone 3-suited) hand with 2C.
In short: you need two add. rounds of bidding to show your suit, unless you have a specific
agreement set, that allowes you to show the 2-suiter.

With the given hand it is borderline, make it a little stronger and you have to go via 2C,
if you have 23+, getting passed out is a real issue, so is holding the spades and lots of
values in the majors.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

 P_Marlowe, on 2016-June-14, 01:36, said:

Opening 2-suited hand with 2C is problematic, the exception being, with touching suits,
and the higher ranking suit is longer.
In short, you should be wary opening a 2-suited (let alone 3-suited) hand with 2C.
In short: you need two add. rounds of bidding to show your suit, unless you have a specific
agreement set, that allowes you to show the 2-suiter.

With the given hand it is borderline, make it a little stronger and you have to go via 2C,
if you have 23+, getting passed out is a real issue, so is holding the spades and lots of
values in the majors.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Good advice, avoid opening 2♣ on 2 suiters if you can, but some hands are just too strong.

Trying to get both suits in gets even worse if the opps start bidding one of the other suits strongly

[sfi]

 Liversidge, on 2016-June-14, 00:17, said:

Do the criteria for opening 2♣ change with a two suited hand. For example, S AKTxx H AK D AKxxx C x has (I think) 10 playing tricks and 6 defensive tricks. Are all the fourth and fifth cards in the long suits reliable playing tricks. And the fit might turn out to be in diamonds.

You're right that this hand is worth a 2C opening on values. But it is worth considering how the auction will proceed. On which auction would you be happier:

2C - (3H) - P - (4H)

or:

1S - (3H) - P - (4H)

On the second one you can double and bid 5D over anything. On the first one you risk missing a 5-3 spade fit and partner has a harder time evaluating a hand like Qxx x Qxxx xxxxx. Of course, partner needs to be aware that you might open hands this strong at the one level to think about raising to slam on a hand like this.

You can also construct hands where 6H or 7H is the right place to play, and you're going to struggle more to find it over a 2C opener than an auction that starts 1S - 1NT; 3D - 3H.

The downside is, of course, that you have to make it past the first round of the auction to catch up with your values. Sometimes this is just too big of a worry to open at the one level - teammates don't really appreciate the +230, -1430 comparisons after all.

[NickRW]

 Liversidge, on 2016-June-14, 00:17, said:

Do the criteria for opening 2♣ change with a two suited hand. For example, S AKTxx H AK D AKxxx C x has (I think) 10 playing tricks and 6 defensive tricks. Are all the fourth and fifth cards in the long suits reliable playing tricks. And the fit might turn out to be in diamonds.

Players who have given this much thought (and that isn't many!) tend to be more strict before opening 2C with a strong 2 suiter. The reason being that you're already opening a level higher and have 2 suits to mention - so you had better be worth all that space. Also, with a 2 suiter you have the option of opening at the one level and rebidding with a reverse. (Whereas, with a one suiter, the jump rebid in the same suit is considered strong but not forcing)

Another aspect which may colour your thoughts, in Acol land anyway, is are you playing traditional strong twos (which most of us have long since stopped doing, but they're a whole lot better than some people think).

Nick

[Liversidge]

 NickRW, on 2016-June-14, 07:29, said:

Another aspect which may colour your thoughts, in Acol land anyway, is are you playing traditional strong twos (which most of us have long since stopped doing, but they're a whole lot better than some people think).

Nick

We play 3 weak 2's. We have found that the opportunity to preempt with 6 cards comes up a lot more often than hands on the cusp of opening at the 1 level or 2C level.
I understand that in Modern Acol a jump rebid of my opening suit is forcing, and game forcing after a 2 level response.

[helene_t]

After a 1 level response, opener's jump rebid is nonforcing.

[Cyberyeti]

 helene_t, on 2016-June-14, 09:06, said:

After a 1 level response, opener's jump rebid is nonforcing.

And this is the source of a lot of issues in Acol. For the OP, if you see a reference to the "hand of death" or similar it's usually a good 6 card suit often with 3 cards in responder's major and strong enough that a NF rebid of 3 of your suit risks missing game.

eg 1♦-1♠-?

AQx
x
AKJxxx
AJx

[msjennifer]

One Spade in all seats and all positions.The given hand is not suited for any of the other alternatives. If Texas is being used AND the vulnerability is favorable then 4S opening bid will be in picture.

[NickRW]

 Cyberyeti, on 2016-June-14, 09:12, said:

And this is the source of a lot of issues in Acol. For the OP, if you see a reference to the "hand of death" or similar it's usually a good 6 card suit often with 3 cards in responder's major and strong enough that a NF rebid of 3 of your suit risks missing game.

eg 1♦-1♠-?

AQx
x
AKJxxx
AJx

To be fair to Acol, it is an issue in Standard and 2/1 as well, unless you invent special handling for it.

[NickRW]

 Liversidge, on 2016-June-14, 07:57, said:

We play 3 weak 2's. We have found that the opportunity to preempt with 6 cards comes up a lot more often than hands on the cusp of opening at the 1 level or 2C level.

Yes, and most people (and that includes me!) have had similar thoughts (even if the only answer they can come up with is Benji). I was just saying that the traditional Acol twos, though much scoffed at, are not as bad as some people think they are.

Quote

I understand that in Modern Acol a jump rebid of my opening suit is forcing, and game forcing after a 2 level response.

It is quite reasonable for the jump rebid to be forcing after a 2/1 response, even a traditional Acol 9+ 2/1 and especially a "modern" Acol (essentially standard) 10+ 2/1. But, though highly encouraging, it is quite passable after a one level response.

[Liversidge]

 Cyberyeti, on 2016-June-14, 09:12, said:

And this is the source of a lot of issues in Acol. For the OP, if you see a reference to the "hand of death" or similar it's usually a good 6 card suit often with 3 cards in responder's major and strong enough that a NF rebid of 3 of your suit risks missing game.

eg 1♦-1♠-?

AQx
x
AKJxxx
AJx

Tweak the hand to:
AKx
x
AKJxxx
AJx

8 playing tricks, where some at my club would open 2♣, which might find game where if I open 1♦ my 3♦ rebid gets passed out. I'd rather not try to cover it off with an additional mod such as an extended 2NT or cue bidding - we have enough on our plate for now.
Should I just accept that it is just an example of where nothing's perfect, and occasionally 2♣ with 8 playing tricks works better, but most times it doesn't, which is why nobody who is anybody in the bridge world plays it (rehearsing my explanation to a questioning partner).

[TMorris]

 Liversidge, on 2016-June-14, 10:48, said:

Tweak the hand to:
AKx
x
AKJxxx
AJx

8 playing tricks, where some at my club would open 2♣, which might find game where if I open 1♦ my 3♦ rebid gets passed out. I'd rather not try to cover it off with an additional mod such as an extended 2NT or cue bidding - we have enough on our plate for now.
Should I just accept that it is just an example of where nothing's perfect, and occasionally 2♣ with 8 playing tricks works better, but most times it doesn't, which is why nobody who is anybody in the bridge world plays it (rehearsing my explanation to a questioning partner).

If you open this 1 ♦ which is not unreasonable you cannot rebid 3♦ you need to "invent" a bid which would usually be 3♣ as you try not to rebid a 3 card major if at all possible. Partner can pass 3 ♦ but 3♣ is game forcing.

[NickRW]

 Liversidge, on 2016-June-14, 10:48, said:

Tweak the hand to:
AKx
x
AKJxxx
AJx

8 playing tricks, where some at my club would open 2♣, which might find game where if I open 1♦ my 3♦ rebid gets passed out. I'd rather not try to cover it off with an additional mod such as an extended 2NT or cue bidding - we have enough on our plate for now.
Should I just accept that it is just an example of where nothing's perfect, and occasionally 2♣ with 8 playing tricks works better, but most times it doesn't, which is why nobody who is anybody in the bridge world plays it (rehearsing my explanation to a questioning partner).

As you note there are ways and means of handling this sort of hand without opening 2C, but they are not really beginner topics for this forum (indeed not all expert pairs have adopted specific solutions for what is sometimes called the "death hand". The usual solution if you're playing 3 weak twos is to open 1D and "invent" a fourth club and rebid 3C.

Reverse the clubs and the hearts - now you've got a lot of people head scratching as they don't like inventing a fourth card in a major suit!



Nick

[Liversidge]

 NickRW, on 2016-June-15, 02:17, said:

Reverse the clubs and the hearts - now you've got a lot of people head scratching as they don't like inventing a fourth card in a major suit!

Yep! Since TMorris's post I have been trying to figure this one out, without success. The way I am looking at it is that no system is perfect and this is one of those problem hands that the system doesn't deal with well. For example, a few weeks ago I posted about a hand where I had 19 HCP and opened 1♦. Partner responded 2♦. I didn't have a stop in one of the suits and was asking how I might check. The most common advice was to cross my fingers and bid 3NT.

http://www.bridgebas...4137-1d-2d-3nt/


Back to this topic - I can now think of quite a few situations where opening 2♦ with 8 playing tricks and 19 HCP could cause problems. For example: 2♣ 2♦ -3♦ - ? If partner has 3 HCP, unbalanced hand and no diamonds does he bid 3NT?

[P_Marlowe]

 Liversidge, on 2016-June-15, 07:39, said:

Yep! Since TMorris's post I have been trying to figure this one out, without success. The way I am looking at it is that no system is perfect and this is one of those problem hands that the system doesn't deal with well. For example, a few weeks ago I posted about a hand where I had 19 HCP and opened 1♦. Partner responded 2♦. I didn't have a stop in one of the suits and was asking how I might check. The most common advice was to cross my fingers and bid 3NT.

http://www.bridgebas...4137-1d-2d-3nt/


Back to this topic - I can now think of quite a few situations where opening 2♦ with 8 playing tricks and 19 HCP could cause problems. For example: 2♣ 2♦ -3♦ - ? If partner has 3 HCP, unbalanced hand and no diamonds does he bid 3NT?

I assume, you spoke about opening 2C.
Strong minor 1-suiter usually show 9+ playing tricks.

If 2D is unlimited, just waiting, than the question is, is 2C forcing to game, if yes,
than he tries to bid a 4 card major or otherwise 3NT, if no he can pass.

At the end of the day, this is a area, were you have to pay off, if you want to keep it
simple, if lightning strikes, get up again, move on to the next board.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Liversidge]

 P_Marlowe, on 2016-June-15, 07:51, said:

I assume, you spoke about opening 2C.
Strong minor 1-suiter usually show 9+ playing tricks.
If 2D is unlimited, just waiting, than the question is, is 2C forcing to game, if yes,
than he tries to bid a 4 card major or otherwise 3NT, if no he can pass.

Sorry I meant opening 2♣.
Partner and I play that we need to be within one PT of game in our suit to open 2♣, but some at our club will open with 8 playing tricks, even in a minor! Most play that a 2♦ response shows 0-7 HCP. We have just started playing a different set of responses:
2♦ = 1+ playing trick, no strong suit (5+ & two top honours), maybe balanced
2♥ = 0 playing tricks, no king, no two queens
2♠/3♣/3♦ = Positive 7+ HCP & 2 playing tricks, with a “strong suit”.
2NT = Positive heart suit - 6-7+ HCP & 2 playing tricks with a “strong suit”
3♥/♠ = 6/7 card ONE loser major suit (KQJxxx, AQJxxx, AKJxxx)
It has the added benefit that if opener has a balanced hand and responder has a natural 2NT response the contract is not played with the strong hand on the table.

[P_Marlowe]

 Liversidge, on 2016-June-15, 09:21, said:

Sorry I meant opening 2♣.
Partner and I play that we need to be within one PT of game in our suit to open 2♣, but some at our club will open with 8 playing tricks, even in a minor! Most play that a 2♦ response shows 0-7 HCP. We have just started playing a different set of responses:
2♦ = 1+ playing trick, no strong suit (5+ & two top honours), maybe balanced
2♥ = 0 playing tricks, no king, no two queens
2♠/3♣/3♦ = Positive 7+ HCP & 2 playing tricks, with a “strong suit”.
2NT = Positive heart suit - 6-7+ HCP & 2 playing tricks with a “strong suit”
3♥/♠ = 6/7 card ONE loser major suit (KQJxxx, AQJxxx, AKJxxx)
It has the added benefit that if opener has a balanced hand and responder has a natural 2NT response the contract is not played with the strong hand on the table.

Ok, but than the 2D response to your 2C opening showes some live, and you should have some play in 3NT.
I was responding to a post of yours, where you said, if I open 2C, and you raise partners response to 3D,
should your partner close his eyes and bid 3NT.
The answer is yes. Would he bid 3NT, facing a 2NT opener, holding a hand with a playing trick?
The answer is he should, and the 2C opener is not weaker in playing strength than a 2NT opener.
The only difference is, that the weak hand gets to play 3NT, ok happens.