[Stefan_O]

Would like to know, playing 2/1, what is the "consensus" view here:

1♣ - 1♥
1♠ - 1NT
2♦

What does 2♦ mean?

[ggwhiz]

I normally play it as a 4-1-3-5 hand with 16-17ish. A touch extra in values warning of the heart position.

[kenrexford]

I play this strangely, as a delayed canape. Meaning, 3145 and just barely not enough to reverse. This is a strange auction for me, especially in light of the prepared fragment bid in spades.

[Stefan_O]

kenrexford, on 2016-May-28, 19:11, said:

I play this strangely, as a delayed canape. Meaning, 3145 and just barely not enough to reverse. This is a strange auction for me, especially in light of the prepared fragment bid in spades.

You bid 1♠ with only 3-card suit?
That doesnt seems like 2/1?

[P_Marlowe]

FSF.

But since you asked for consensus in a 2/1 context, I guess it showes diamonds.
In North America there are only few seq. FSF.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Phil]

It shows 4=0=4=5 unless you are in France.

[ggwhiz]

Stefan_O, on 2016-May-29, 04:05, said:

You bid 1♠ with only 3-card suit?
That doesnt seems like 2/1?

Meckwell did this before they invented support doubles to avoid 3-3 fits. They probably still bid like that when the support double is not available to avoid bidding 1nt with a stiff heart.

[Stefan_O]

P_Marlowe, on 2016-May-29, 08:13, said:

FSF.

But since you asked for consensus in a 2/1 context, I guess it showes diamonds.
In North America there are only few seq. FSF.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Hm... so in a context of standard natural systems in varous countries, is it fair to say,
in North Am it show 3+diamonds,
while in EU it is 4SF?

[Stephen Tu]

Phil, on 2016-May-29, 08:36, said:

It shows 4=0=4=5 unless you are in France.

So what does it show in France?

[P_Marlowe]

Stefan_O, on 2016-May-29, 09:34, said:

Hm... so in a context of standard natural systems in varous countries, is it fair to say,
in North Am it show 3+diamonds,
while in EU it is 4SF?

In EU FSF is more often employed, than in North Am.
The given seq. is rare, i.e. unless you assign a special meaning, you would look
at other more common seq., when opener bids the 4th suit and than assume it means
the same here.

A relevant fact for this specific seq. is the question, is Walsh in place?
3+ diamonds is only really sensible, if you want to cater for a bypassed 5+ diamond
suit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[SteveMoe]

Singleton or void in ♥ in a 3 suited hand. F1R.

[manudude03]

It's natural for me and I'm a European. As I mentioned in the related GIB thread, I would bid 2D on a 4135 17 count.

[kenrexford]

ggwhiz, on 2016-May-29, 08:53, said:

Meckwell did this before they invented support doubles to avoid 3-3 fits. They probably still bid like that when the support double is not available to avoid bidding 1nt with a stiff heart.

Exactly. Hence the delayed reverse/canape.

Easier example is
1H-1NT(forcinf)
2C(3+)-2H
2S(4513, shy of reverse)

Also,
1D-1S
2C-2D
2H(1453, shy of reverse)

[Phil]

Stephen Tu, on 2016-May-29, 09:59, said:

So what does it show in France?

So I've been told: they never raise with 3 pieces. So in this sequence :

2 ♦ is 15-17 and 4315. 2 ♥ shoes 4315 and 12-14.

[apollo1201]

Phil, sorry to correct you but in France, most players who bid 2H in this sequence show 15-17 with 4315.

Poor 4315 with 12-14 worrily pass 1NT and don't try to improve the partial. 1NT is a "courtesy" bid as a least evil (most responders with weak and 4Ds would choose 2D esp if C are not stopped, and with 5 robust or 6 Hs would rebid 2H) and can be unbalanced even 2416.

Statistically, I don't know how often 2H plays better than 1NT considering responder didn't bid sth else or just didn't pass 1S (eg with 3 cards and up to a bad 7).

[Zelandakh]

While I think "standard" is patterning out, a diamond fragment with extras, my instinct is that this is more useful as showing a raise to 2NT with concern about diamonds, something like ♠AQxx ♥ Kx ♦xx ♣AQJxx. In some ways this boils down to whether it is more useful to know diamond length (0-2 vs 3) or the quality of the diamond stopper, which as others have already pointed out is to some extent dependent on the rest of the system being used.

[helene_t]

So they don't play Walsh in France?

Playing Walsh, 2♥ would show the 15-17 4315 since with 11-14 4315 you can pass 1NT. Even if not playing (strict) Walsh I would still prefer that style. Maybe it is better to raise hearts directly with 4315 and 11-14 but I am not convinced. I like finding the 4-4 spades fit. But this is again related to whether we open 1♣ with 1345. If not, then the heart raise will tend to have a 4-card in one of the majors, and I suppose that is more manageable than a raise being any minimim with 3-4 cards support.

[nige1]

Stefan_O, on 2016-May-28, 15:13, said:

Would like to know, playing 2/1, what is the "consensus" view here:
1♣ - 1♥
1♠ - 1NT
2♦
What does 2♦ mean?

IMO, NAT. F1. (4045/4036/4135/4126)

[apollo1201]

Dear Helene, Walsh is played but not commonly in France. So 1C-1H-1S reveals very little from opener except that he holds 4S: can be balanced 12-14 (even 18-19 for some), or unbal up to 18... yes, this standard can greatly be improved!