[oldem]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-April-05, 16:00, said:

You seem to know an awful lot more about your first-time partner's style of jump shift responses than we do. Given the level of detail I am surprised you need any advice whatsoever. But just to play devil's advocate a moment, what were your actual agreements with your partner? You already changed your agreement about the 5♣ call, perhaps other hand type are also possible for 2♥ than those that you envisage here.

I did not "know an awful lot more about my first-time partner's style", I only "interpreted" the meaning of his bidding as such, and it appeared that my interpretation was sound! That's all. Well, there can be many interpretations, and if you are lucky to guess correctly, you can see a better result. For your information, I checked the traveller, and this is what I found for the board we are talking about. There were 15 tables playing it: 2 succeeded in bidding and playing 7NT (including our pair) with score of 14.4 imps, 1 7♥ with 12.9 imps, 1 6♣ and 1 6♥ with 6.9 imps, 8 3NT with -2.9 imps, and 3 3♥ with -10.9 imps. This result proves that you are quite right in showing so many interpretations of the bidding. Cheers!

[Zelandakh]

 oldem, on 2016-April-09, 08:49, said:

I did not "know an awful lot more about my first-time partner's style", I only "interpreted" the meaning of his bidding as such

You presented your interpretations as agreements. You can hardly expect to receive good advice if your basis is false. But perhaps your aim in this thread was less about receiving opinions and more about showing a hand where you bid and made 7NT.

 oldem, on 2016-April-09, 08:49, said:

This result proves that you are quite right in showing so many interpretations of the bidding.

You cannot take very much about what agreements are being used for a 2♥ response from the final results at other tables. As already mentioned, I would expect a fair portion of the field to have opened the South hand 1NT, which naturally leads to a completely different auction.

[kenberg]

Just checking.
From earlier:

 oldem, on 2016-April-05, 09:30, said:

Take the jump shift as a big hand of 17+ HCPs with a nearly solid ♥ suit. What is the criteria for it? It can't be Q-high 5-cards. Since you hold the ♥A, you can be sure that your partner has both the ♥K, the ♥Q, and probably the ♥J as well. This accounts for only 13-14 HCPs, if you take the 5♣ response to your 4NT asking as showing 3 key cards. Then where will be the other necessary 3-4 plus HCPs? The response of 6♥ to your 5NT asking shows 2 K's which can be either ♥K and ♠K or ♥K and ♦K. Still, you can expect your partner to hold 1 more Q or J somewhere to make up the necessary 17+ HCPs.

When you say you got the interpretation right, this is what you mean? Your partner counted the heart K for his 5C bid and then counted it again for his 6H bid?

By the way: If indeed he has the heart king and one other, my bet is on the king of spades.

[oldem]

Thanks all for so many readings, comments,... I think it's time to close this discussion here. The variety in your discussion, your interpretation of the bidding, etc., proves that it's really difficult to correctly guess what the bidding really means. Although contract bridge bidding is becoming more and more sophisticated, but still, there is much room for guessing, for misunderstanding, even for self-righteously interpreting.
For your information, I will show the full board and the result taken from the traveller. All the players' names will not be disclosed.

---

There were 15 tables: 2 pairs playing 7NT (including our pair) for 14.4 imps; 1 pair, 7♥ for 13.9 imps; 1 pair, 6♣, 1 pair, 6♥, both for 6.9 imps; 8 pairs, 3NT for -2.9 imps; and last, 3 pairs, 3♥ for -10.9 imps.

[Zelandakh]

Looking at both hands, I am surprised no pair managed to reach 6NT.

[kenberg]

Thans for the full hand. I had been wondering.

Under the reasonable assumption that clubs come in I see, looking at the NS hands, 12 tricks. If hearts splt there are13 tricks with room to spare, if hearts do not split the player with four is not pitching one and there is no squeeze, no nothing, for the 13th trick. I mentioned in another thread that after an auction began 1m-1S-2NT I drive to 6S in my AKQxxx. Partner had a stiff spade, not the Jack. The spades split, it came home. Great, but when I do not bid a slam, small or grand, and it comes in on a 3-3 split I do not stew about it.

I don't know if you asked your partner how he came to bid 6H over 5NT but here is why I speculated that, if he had only one king outside of hearts that it was the spade king: Some play that 5NT asks for the lowest ranking king. If he had the diamond king with or without the spade king his response would have been 6D. But he lacks a minor suit king. Since 6S takes him beyond 6H, he settled for 6H figuring that since this denied the club king and the heart king, you could reasonably infer from his strong jump shift and his 6H that he had the spade king but not either minor suit king.

I am not as all sure that the lowest ranking king is the best way to play, but my guess is that is what was intended. If I held his hand, and if I took 5NTas asking for the number of kings, my response would have been 6D. "Number of kings". to me, means the number of kings other than the trump king which has already been accounted for in my response to 4NT. I am very confident that this is the usual understanding when "number of kings" is asked for.

It is reasonable to speculate on how the auction goes after an opening of 1NT, showing 15-17. With his 18 count, N wishes to be in slam, and he (at least perhaps) wishes to be in a grand if S has three hearts and they have all of the keys. And not in a grand opposite a two card holding. As I play, 1NT-2D-2H-4NT is not keycard, it is slam invitational based on five hearts and enough highs to invite. Here, that would not apply since I think there are enough highs to insist on 6. Perhaps 1N-2D-2H-5NT should say: We are going to 6, if you have three hearts please treat 5H as rkc, if you have only two hears please just raise to 6NT.
I have such an agreement with no one. And knowing all the keys and that S has three trumps may still leave a little doubt in the N mind.

Surely, on the NS cards alone, the right contract is 6NT. 12 tricks are there unless clubs are 5-0, and 13 tricks requires a 3-3 heart split. This hypothetical agreement above gets us there. Other suggestions would be of interest. If we change, say, the club 3 to a heart 3 I would not say that 7NT is a safe contract but it is a reasonable contract, making if hearts are 3-2, failing if they are not.


Added: Back in post number 18, I gave N approximately the hand he has, execpt, consistent with my "2 kings" interpretation, I gave him the diamond king instead of the spade queen. I mentioned that I was not bidding 7 of anything, and for basically the reason that we see here. I count 12 tricks, I need 13. Where from? Partner does not need the heart Jack for his bidding, and if he doesn't have it then we need a 3-3 split to make this grand. Of course he might have the Jack. Or not. Or they might split. Or not. I settled then, back in post 18, for a small slam and I still do.

[kenberg]

Not for the first time I woke up feeling stupid and had to check this hand to see if it was as I remember it. It is. 7♣ majes whenever clubs are no worse than 4-1 and hearts are no worse than 4-2. A good bet. But how to get there? A good question.

As S, it seems clear to me to start with 1NT. After that, we never reach 7♣ on any auction I can imagine. If I start with 1♣ it could go 1♣-2♥-3♣-3NT. True I only have five clubs but they are good clubs and pard might allow for the fact I had to cope with the unexpected 2♥. This beginning was suggested earlier. After 3♣ I think 3NT probably is normal: Big hand, hearts that are by no means self-supporting, stoppers in the unbids. We still probably end in 6NT, not 7♣.

So if anyone has a plausible auction to 7♣ I would be happy to hear it.

Added: I suppose that if it does start 1♣-2♥-3♣ then N might reason that if S holds AKQxx in clubs and Ax in hearts there will be a decent play for 7♣. If so, it might continue 3♦-3♥ followed by a key card ask for clubs (the 3♦ setting clubs) and then a Q ask. But maybe I fantasize.

[johnu]

 oldem, on 2016-April-09, 20:04, said:

There were 15 tables: 2 pairs playing 7NT (including our pair) for 14.4 imps;

7NT is a great contract by BBO Forum standards.