[sanst]

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W starts with ♠A and switches to a small ♦. E wins with the ace, returns a small ♦ which is won by S with the K. Now S puts his cards on the table and says "The rest is mine". No line of play is given. W protests that its quite possible that S plays clubs before all trumps are drawn and that therefore E will make a trick. The TD decides that S will play trumps first and, when he discovers that W holds all the outstanding clubs, the finesse is marked, S making 5♥. What's your verdict?

[ahydra]

I'd say this depends on the level of competition. At expert level I'd allow the claim, club level I would not. (How hard is it to say "drawing trumps"? )

ahydra

[WesleyC]

 ahydra, on 2016-March-10, 09:19, said:

I'd say this depends on the level of competition. At expert level I'd allow the claim, club level I would not. (How hard is it to say "drawing trumps"? )

An expert would never claim here without drawing at least 1 round of trumps.

If declarer had played 1 round of trumps and then claimed (without stating a line) then the claim should obviously be allowed.

But to claim at trick 2 without stating a line or acknowledging the risk of 5-0 trumps, is -1 IMO.

[WellSpyder]

I think it is obvious that declarer intended to draw trumps first, even if he doesn't seem to have considered the possibility that they will break 5-0. It would be a more interesting question without ♠K in dummy since now the club position becomes more relevant. Declarer would probably be expecting to make 4 trumps, 2 diamonds and 5 clubs. But if after drawing trumps he cashes his 2nd diamond trick before playing clubs he will find that the club suit is blocked even though he can pick up the jack with the aid of the marked finesse.

[wank]

11 tricks. declarer obviously intends to draw trumps, but has never seen a 5-0 split before.

as for clubs, ew are unfortunate that it's not 4-0 the other way round. this way the position must be showin up, no matter which honour is cashed first.

[blackshoe]

When a claimer does not state a line of play, any normal line, including careless or inferior ones, is a possible legal result. Per Law 70, any doubtful point is resolved against the claimer. So declarer, claimer, gets 11 tricks. It doesn't matter whether he's an expert, or Mrs. Guggenheim.

[sanst]

 blackshoe, on 2016-March-12, 21:47, said:

When a claimer does not state a line of play, any normal line, including careless or inferior ones, is a possible legal result. Per Law 70, any doubtful point is resolved against the claimer. So declarer, claimer, gets 11 tricks. It doesn't matter whether he's an expert, or Mrs. Guggenheim.

Would it be abnormal, for whatever reason, for the dclarer to play clubs before having drawn all trumps? If he did that, he, or she in the case of Mrs. Guggenheim, would certainly loose three tricks.

[Vampyr]

 sanst, on 2016-March-13, 07:05, said:

Would it be abnormal, for whatever reason, for the dclarer to play clubs before having drawn all trumps?

Yes

[barmar]

 blackshoe, on 2016-March-12, 21:47, said:

When a claimer does not state a line of play, any normal line, including careless or inferior ones, is a possible legal result. Per Law 70, any doubtful point is resolved against the claimer. So declarer, claimer, gets 11 tricks. It doesn't matter whether he's an expert, or Mrs. Guggenheim.

The footnote that says what a "normal" line says "for the class of player". So experts should be treated differently.

[weejonnie]

Mrs Guggenheim would ALWAYS draw trumps first BUT there is a good chance she would play the clubs the wrong way - so she is -1.
The Unlucky Expert would always make the contract.
Futile Willie would be one off in 6 Hearts
Mr Smug would always make the contract.

BUT

The Unlucky expert would have played the ♠2 on trick 1 in tempo as a suit preference signal (however no one else would notice it)
Mr Smug and Futile Willie would have played the ♠2 NOT in tempo and the other would would have switched to a club.
Partnering either of the above, the unlucky expert would have switched to a non-club as an ethical thing to do.

[Zelandakh]

 weejonnie, on 2016-March-13, 13:39, said:

Mrs Guggenheim would ALWAYS draw trumps first BUT there is a good chance she would play the clubs the wrong way - so she is -1.

What is the wrong way on this hand?

[Fluffy]

I have seen people playing clubs from the top not realicing someone is discarding, specially after some rounds of trumps and some discards they didn't pay attention either to.

I am happy if everyone considers this beyond careless, is there a consensous?

[richlp]

 Fluffy, on 2016-March-15, 02:21, said:

I have seen people playing clubs from the top not realicing someone is discarding, specially after some rounds of trumps and some discards they didn't pay attention either to.

I am happy if everyone considers this beyond careless, is there a consensous?

I once had a hand where I had all winners in dummy and all winners in my hand. I forgot about the outstanding (non-master) trump. I was in dummy and claimed, "Dummy's good and I've got the trump left."
The director ruled that I would fail to notice that RHO had ruffed one of dummy's winners. I suppose that if that is possible then ruling declarer would fail to notice somebody not following suit is possible.

I didn't particularly like that ruling then and I don't like the equivalent here.

[ggwhiz]

Anyone making a claim this careless (5-0 trumps for example) won't notice a spade pitch on the 1st round of clubs period.

[robert2734]

The ACBL will allow you to notice somebody discarded and take the marked finesse when you have made a faulty claim. Whether you actually would is harder to determine.

[nige1]

 ahydra, on 2016-March-10, 09:19, said:

I'd say this depends on the level of competition. At expert level I'd allow the claim, club level I would not. (How hard is it to say "drawing trumps"? )ahydra

I think it's unfair that the director must consider the standard of the declarer. I suppose, however, that

• Drawing trumps is the best part of a typical beginner's game, so the director might consider giving him the benefit of the doubt. (He can't get clubs wrong provided he notices that RHO shows out on the 1st round)
• An expert, especially a world-class expert, is expected to know and abide by claim-law; either he is being deliberately bolshy or he has completely lost the place; hence the director should rule against him, automatically.