[mike777]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-March-08, 04:46, said:

Be careful, NI and Scotland have their own govenments that have power over some of this. London is almost completely service industry based and makes very little. There are some incentives to move away from London, but if a service industry's key asset is its staff, and they don't want to move, what do you do ?

OK First off to back up we are told land and housing costs are out of control, only the rich can afford to stay and buy a home and raise a family, so the rich stay. If the rest want to stay and not buy a home and have a family, ok.

The rest will need to think about moving or just stay and complain and do nothing.
Same with all the immigrants coming to the United Kingdom.

We are told by posters that in NI and Scotland, outside of England, there are no jobs so not sure how that is business friendly.
----

BTW I heard yesterday the USA has 60 million immigrants living there.

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2016-March-08, 11:28, said:

OK First off to back up we are told land and housing costs are out of control, only the rich can afford to stay and buy a home and raise a family, so the rich stay. If the rest want to stay and not buy a home and have a family, ok.

The rest will need to think about moving or just stay and complain and do nothing.
Same with all the immigrants coming to the United Kingdom.

We are told by posters that in NI and Scotland, outside of England, there are no jobs so not sure how that is business friendly.
----

BTW I heard yesterday the USA has 60 million immigrants living there.

NI is a very different type of community, I don't pretend to know what it's like, and how welcome immigrants feel there.

To give you an idea of the difference between London and elsewhere. The area of London where various of my family members lived in what was the suburbs when they moved in in the 50s or 60s, now is part of the urban sprawl, a 2 bed semi with a modest garden is £650K. Where I live, a little over 100 miles away, it's 1/5 to 1/4 of that, and in some northern towns it's a fraction of what mine is. What happens ? People on decent incomes live with their parents till they're 30+ in an attempt to save a deposit, then buy somewhere cheaper. They can only get back to those areas if their parents' house is either sold or inherited. There are cheaper areas of London or you buy outside and commute. People commute daily by train from Doncaster, 180 miles north of London as it is cheaper to pay the mortgage on a house there and pay the train fare, than to buy something equivalent in London.

More tax raising powers are in the process of being devolved to Scotland, so they can make it more business friendly, but it is not an attractive place to make stuff as it's a hell of a long way from anywhere, NI is even worse.

[fromageGB]

The Telegraph is saying today that
"Plus, Turkey will get early, visa-free access to Europe by June, and may be waved through into full membership of the EU, which means 75 million Turks will be entitled to move to Basingstoke."

I used to live in Basingstoke, but it was smaller in those days. I think we will have to bulldoze it and build those skyscrapers Mike777 wants.

[mgoetze]

As a German national, I have visa-free access to all sorts of countries, e.g. Hong Kong. Having access is not quite the same thing as having a residence permit, though.

[Zelandakh]

fromageGB, on 2016-March-09, 09:22, said:

The Telegraph is saying today that
"Plus, Turkey will get early, visa-free access to Europe by June, and may be waved through into full membership of the EU, which means 75 million Turks will be entitled to move to Basingstoke."

This is typical of the worst tabloid reporting but done by The Telegraph for extra effect. Few Turks want to move to the UK at all, let alone Basingstoke. Germany is much more convenient, and has both a very strong economy and a larger Turkish community to join. Besides, with 75 million Turks in Basinstoke, we can all move to Istanbul and the beach resorts there since the entire country will be empty. Rent out your Basingstoke flats and buy half a dozen Turkish hotels!

[Cyberyeti]

mgoetze, on 2016-March-09, 10:01, said:

As a German national, I have visa-free access to all sorts of countries, e.g. Hong Kong. Having access is not quite the same thing as having a residence permit, though.

I believe the Turks will (possibly after a cooldown period) have residency rights all over Europe.

They could also pull a stunt I'm slightly surprised the Greeks haven't tried. OK so we have 1.7M Syrians here, we'll fast track their citizenship on the tacit understanding they move out to Northern Europe once they have the right paperwork, and that is the biggest nightmare.

[1eyedjack]

Oh b*gg*r.

Donald Trump has just come out in favour of Brexit.

I had just about made up my mind. Now I am going to have to change it and vote to stay in.

[1eyedjack]

Zelandakh, on 2016-March-09, 10:49, said:

This is typical of the worst tabloid reporting but done by The Telegraph for extra effect. Few Turks want to move to the UK at all, let alone Basingstoke. Germany is much more convenient, and has both a very strong economy and a larger Turkish community to join. Besides, with 75 million Turks in Basinstoke, we can all move to Istanbul and the beach resorts there since the entire country will be empty. Rent out your Basingstoke flats and buy half a dozen Turkish hotels!

Hmm, ZanziBraai kebab from Just-Eat beckons. Nothing wrong with a bit of competition there

[Cyberyeti]

1eyedjack, on 2016-May-06, 01:15, said:

Oh b*gg*r.

Donald Trump has just come out in favour of Brexit.

I had just about made up my mind. Now I am going to have to change it and vote to stay in.

Yeah, but what does he think Brazil is exiting from ?

Does he know anything about Europe aside from the fact that he owns a golf course in Scotland (which he may or may not know is in Europe)

[fromageGB]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-May-06, 04:12, said:

Yeah, but what does he think Brazil is exiting from ?
Does he know anything about Europe aside from the fact that he owns a golf course in Scotland (which he may or may not know is in Europe)

OK, breathe again. He knows nothing about Europe so we can ignore what he says, and vote leave after all.

[kenberg]

1eyedjack, on 2016-May-06, 01:15, said:

Oh b*gg*r.

Donald Trump has just come out in favour of Brexit.

I had just about made up my mind. Now I am going to have to change it and vote to stay in.

We are all hoping for a Trexit, and the sooner the better. Perhaps, following the example of our own president, David Cameron could come over and explain to Americans how they should vote.

Anyway, I wish you the best. I am reflexively of the "Let's all stick together" frame of mind, but I am fully aware of not having any real grasp of the issues.

[fromageGB]

kenberg, on 2016-May-06, 06:16, said:

We are all hoping for a Trexit, and the sooner the better.

Nov 9th. No sooner, but no later, either.

[fromageGB]

kenberg, on 2016-May-06, 06:16, said:

I am reflexively of the "Let's all stick together" frame of mind, but I am fully aware of not having any real grasp of the issues.

And thus the situation of very many people in this country. Democracy is flawed - there should be an issue awareness questionnaire on every ballot paper, and appropriate pass marks must be achieved for the vote to count. You don't need to be able to write essays on the subjects, so an hour or so should be sufficient time to cast your vote.

[Fluffy]

I read that if UK gets out we can finally close the border and mitigate the plundering Gibraltar is doing to Cadiz. If that is true, it is very wellcome.

[kenberg]

fromageGB, on 2016-May-06, 07:58, said:

And thus the situation of very many people in this country. Democracy is flawed - there should be an issue awareness questionnaire on every ballot paper, and appropriate pass marks must be achieved for the vote to count. You don't need to be able to write essays on the subjects, so an hour or so should be sufficient time to cast your vote.

We often worry about voter suppression efforts here, and in fact there are good historical reasons for this concern. But there are times when it sounds as if people really can't much be bothered with any advance preparation at all. It's "Hey, what shall we do? Go to a movie? Go out for a beer? Oh, I hear there is an election, let's go do that." Maybe it would be ok to suppress that vote. It's true that I am often, or make that usually, not well prepared to vote on who should be the judge of the orphan's court. But I know who is running for the Senate.

[hrothgar]

kenberg, on 2016-May-06, 08:36, said:

We often worry about voter suppression efforts here, and in fact there are good historical reasons for this concern. But there are times when it sounds as if people really can't much be bothered with any advance preparation at all. It's "Hey, what shall we do? Go to a movie? Go out for a beer? Oh, I hear there is an election, let's go do that." Maybe it would be ok to suppress that vote. It's true that I am often, or make that usually, not well prepared to vote on who should be the judge of the orphan's court. But I know who is running for the Senate.

FWIW, here's an example of the type of voter literacy tests that were used in the US

http://www.slate.com..._louisiana.html

Note: A single wong answer meant that you were disqualified from voting.
Also note that these tests were administered in highly discriminatory ways

[onoway]

It's difficult to know much about it from outside the country but the Guardian keeps running stories about the growing number of homeless in the UK and how subsidized housing is being sold and either torn down or renovated for high end flats or houses, and the former tenants are left to fend for themselves. Indeed someone who used to play a lot on BBO told me he and his son were being evicted for that very reason. He had looked for months for something that they could manage to afford that was still anywhere within range of where they both worked, totally without success, and was expecting to be thrown onto the street in January. Indeed I have not seen or heard from him since December. He and his son both had some issues..he suffered from ptsd and his son had some physical issues; both were working but at low paying jobs, probably more typically than most of the people in this forum or their colleagues. What he experienced seems to agree with the articles in the Guardian.

In the meantime, where are all the immigrants to find jobs and affordable housing if it isn't there for the people already there, who already, for example, speak english and know how to get around in the culture? Is it really true that there are that many jobs that British won't do, that they'd rather be on the street? This is not to promote an anti-immigration theme...where I live if it wasn't for the immigrants the place would grind to a halt because people DON"T want to work at any but the highest paying jobs, but the bottom line is that they are in no danger of being tossed into the street because of it. It is an honestly bewildered question.

To be fair,and this is undoubtedly true in Britain as well as the US and Canada, the lowest paying jobs hardly pay the rent, much less rent plus food, heat, clothes, transportation etc. so perhaps they have a point. As long as someone will work at the fast food, gas service station, Walmart, Amazon etc. jobs for less than it costs to live, nothing will change. Thus you get the stories of 20 immigrants living in a 2 bedroom apartment, they do fine, other than that, because if they are all working, they can afford to live if they live together. That isn't likely to be something that people from perhaps a more reserved society, raised in a culture that trains them to believe they ought to be able to live comfortably in a one family house, is willing or perhaps even capable of choosing to do.

When people talk about racism in Britain, it makes me sad, as if you read about WW2, many of the soldiers sent from the US to Britain were astonished at the LACK of racism, and the Brit's refusal to accept the racist structure that went with the U.S. troops. Not a change for the better.

Add to the mix that many of the multinational companies are transitioning their low paying jobs to no jobs at all through mechanization. Several fast food chains are experimenting with changing over to robots, grocery stores are increasingly using mechanized checkouts, Amazon is also said to be experimenting with deliveries made by drones as well as robots in their warehouses, so even those low level jobs will soon disappear. Seems to me that this is all going to lead to a hopelessness, anger and despair, and that is often at the real base of racism. If people are afraid that what they have is going to be taken from them they are obviously going to be angry and look for a target; immigrants are an easy one.

In the meantime, Apple, Starbucks and others are reported to be paying no taxes whatever so that seems fairly business friendly to me.

I really think that the focus on catering to big business has to change in favor of little businesses or we are all - not just in Britain - going to be in a whole world of hurt fairly soon. The results of the increasing concentration of money and power in a few hands is not working out well at all. It's very very difficult to see this happening with the EU set up as it is apparently working now, certainly it appears generally to be mightilly accommodating to big business. Whether Britain would be better off in or out possibly depends somewhat on whether their government continues the present path or starts looking after its people, and whether that's even a choice if they stay in the EU. Isis may only be the beginning...

[Zelandakh]

Fluffy, on 2016-May-06, 08:30, said:

I read that if UK gets out we can finally close the border and mitigate the plundering Gibraltar is doing to Cadiz. If that is true, it is very wellcome.

And we can close our waters and kick the Spanish fishermen out. How do you think going back to the old days of strained relations is a positive thing?

[mike777]

onoway, on 2016-May-06, 09:10, said:

It's difficult to know much about it from outside the country but the Guardian keeps running stories about the growing number of homeless in the UK and how subsidized housing is being sold and either torn down or renovated for high end flats or houses, and the former tenants are left to fend for themselves. Indeed someone who used to play a lot on BBO told me he and his son were being evicted for that very reason. He had looked for months for something that they could manage to afford that was still anywhere within range of where they both worked, totally without success, and was expecting to be thrown onto the street in January. Indeed I have not seen or heard from him since December. He and his son both had some issues..he suffered from ptsd and his son had some physical issues; both were working but at low paying jobs, probably more typically than most of the people in this forum or their colleagues. What he experienced seems to agree with the articles in the Guardian.

In the meantime, where are all the immigrants to find jobs and affordable housing if it isn't there for the people already there, who already, for example, speak english and know how to get around in the culture? Is it really true that there are that many jobs that British won't do, that they'd rather be on the street? This is not to promote an anti-immigration theme...where I live if it wasn't for the immigrants the place would grind to a halt because people DON"T want to work at any but the highest paying jobs, but the bottom line is that they are in no danger of being tossed into the street because of it. It is an honestly bewildered question.

To be fair,and this is undoubtedly true in Britain as well as the US and Canada, the lowest paying jobs hardly pay the rent, much less rent plus food, heat, clothes, transportation etc. so perhaps they have a point. As long as someone will work at the fast food, gas service station, Walmart, Amazon etc. jobs for less than it costs to live, nothing will change. Thus you get the stories of 20 immigrants living in a 2 bedroom apartment, they do fine, other than that, because if they are all working, they can afford to live if they live together. That isn't likely to be something that people from perhaps a more reserved society, raised in a culture that trains them to believe they ought to be able to live comfortably in a one family house, is willing or perhaps even capable of choosing to do.

When people talk about racism in Britain, it makes me sad, as if you read about WW2, many of the soldiers sent from the US to Britain were astonished at the LACK of racism, and the Brit's refusal to accept the racist structure that went with the U.S. troops. Not a change for the better.

Add to the mix that many of the multinational companies are transitioning their low paying jobs to no jobs at all through mechanization. Several fast food chains are experimenting with changing over to robots, grocery stores are increasingly using mechanized checkouts, Amazon is also said to be experimenting with deliveries made by drones as well as robots in their warehouses, so even those low level jobs will soon disappear. Seems to me that this is all going to lead to a hopelessness, anger and despair, and that is often at the real base of racism. If people are afraid that what they have is going to be taken from them they are obviously going to be angry and look for a target; immigrants are an easy one.

In the meantime, Apple, Starbucks and others are reported to be paying no taxes whatever so that seems fairly business friendly to me.

I really think that the focus on catering to big business has to change in favor of little businesses or we are all - not just in Britain - going to be in a whole world of hurt fairly soon. The results of the increasing concentration of money and power in a few hands is not working out well at all. It's very very difficult to see this happening with the EU set up as it is apparently working now, certainly it appears generally to be mightilly accommodating to big business. Whether Britain would be better off in or out possibly depends somewhat on whether their government continues the present path or starts looking after its people, and whether that's even a choice if they stay in the EU. Isis may only be the beginning...

OK so what solutions do you propose. You have mentioned the problems, what policies do you recommend?


Here in the USA they are suggesting raising wages, the results are large companies such as Walmart and Bank of America are laying off thousands and thousands of workers. Machines are replacing people as fast as they can train them up. Even in bridge robots are replacing players.

What do you suggest as a solution?

[PassedOut]

mike777, on 2016-May-06, 15:55, said:

OK so what solutions do you propose. You have mentioned the problems, what policies do you recommend?

Or, you could weigh in on what you recommend. I'm interested.