[tompeer]

Ever find yourself in a situation like the declarer here?

Hand viewer

No problem if you're playing in an express tournament. Just take 14 seconds per decision and bingo - guaranteed 50% when it times out.

This is becoming more and more of a problem as people cotton on to it.

This post has been edited by barmar: 2016-January-08, 09:05
Reason for edit: remove player names

[barmar]

This minor flaw in express tourneys has been brought up many times before.

[Bbradley62]

tompeer, on 2016-January-08, 07:07, said:

This is becoming more and more of a problem as people cotton on to it.

It appears that you have played 321 hands in Express Free Automated Fun tournaments in the past two months. Exactly two of those hands were scored in this manner. Sounds like an epidemic!

[Vampyr]

barmar, on 2016-January-08, 09:07, said:

This minor flaw in express tourneys has been brought up many times before.

It doesn't seem that minor. Anyway shouldn't a player who does not abide by the rules of a speedball recieve A-?

[oryctolagi]

Now I've figured out what this is about (I haven't tried speedball myself, and after reading this thread I'm not in a hurry to! ) - yes I agree this looks rather like a form of cheating. Perhaps the robots could be brought in to finish the hand, and scores allotted accordingly?

Certainly players who try this on should be called out. As I understand it the Admin are able to retrieve the chat line (is chat allowed during speedball?). If so comments like "play please" during the slow play should be enough to confirm that you knew of a problem during the play, instead of retrospectively.

Better luck with your future tourneys!

[Bbradley62]

oryctolagi, on 2016-January-09, 03:52, said:

As I understand it...

No. You apparently don't understand what we are talking about.

There are tournaments called Express Free Automated Fun. There are 8 of them every hour, limited to 80 players each. There are 6 boards, at 5 minutes per board.

It's "Automated" because there is no director. The chat feature is also disabled. Just play, and do so quickly. If you take too long to play you are removed from the tournament and replaced by a robot. You do get a warning when your time to take an action is running short.

Conditions of contest state that all players will play GIB's 2/1 system, since this type of tournament needs one system and that is the only one the robots understand.

If the 5 minutes expires before a hand is completed, play ceases. Then one of two things happens. If at least 8 tricks have been completed, four robots quickly finish the hand for you and you get whatever score results from this. If fewer than 8 tricks had been completed, everyone gets Average. Btw: claiming is allowed and encouraged.

OP in this thread is complaining that it's too easy to stall to get an Average to avoid a bad score, and he claims that it's happening "more and more". These tournaments have existed for several years, so it's not like most players are just now figuring out this strategy. And, see my post #3 for a quick statistic on its frequency.

[nige1]

Bbradley62, on 2016-January-09, 08:04, said:

If the 5 minutes expires before a hand is completed, play ceases. Then one of two things happens. If at least 8 tricks have been completed, four robots quickly finish the hand for you and you get whatever score results from this. If fewer than 8 tricks had been completed, everyone gets Average.

IMO it would be simpler and fairer if, after 5 minutes, robots completed all started hands.

[Bbradley62]

nige1, on 2016-January-09, 08:12, said:

IMO it would be simpler and fairer if, after 5 minutes, robots completed all started hands.

No argument from me. I'm just explaining how the system currently works, for those who may not be following the conversation. Your suggestion, of course, has been the subject of several other threads over the years.

[oryctolagi]

Bbradley62, on 2016-January-09, 08:04, said:

No. You apparently don't understand what we are talking about.

I stand corrected - I did ask if chat was allowed. But was there really any need for you to be so rude?

[lrussell]

I (ACBL_07) direct many BBO ACBL tournaments. I believe BBO players do not pay money and intentionally delay on purpose. The overwhelming majority of hesitations in online bridge are due to software/computer/internet/connectivity issues. Some players may also have physical handicaps which hiders their ability to play.

Perhaps we should all exercise a little more patience when players are slower than we we wish they were.

As Joyce Meyer said "Patience is not simply the ability to wait - it's how we behave while we're waiting."

[Bbradley62]

oryctolagi, on 2016-January-09, 03:52, said:

... (I haven't tried speedball myself, and after reading this thread I'm not in a hurry to! ) ...

By the way, there are tournaments called Speedball, but they are very different from the Express tournaments being discussed here... Speedballs are regular ACBL tournaments (with directors and regular alerting rules, etc) except that there's 4.5 minutes allocated per board (with rounds of 3 boards, best I can tell).

[Vampyr]

lrussell, on 2016-January-09, 23:17, said:

I (ACBL_07) direct many BBO ACBL tournaments. I believe BBO players do not pay money and intentionally delay on purpose. The overwhelming majority of hesitations in online bridge are due to software/computer/internet/connectivity issues. Some players may also have physical handicaps which hiders their ability to play.

Perhaps we should all exercise a little more patience when players are slower than we we wish they were.

As Joyce Meyer said "Patience is not simply the ability to wait - it's how we behave while we're waiting."

Maybe someone with the above issues should avoid speedballs?

[oryctolagi]

Vampyr, on 2016-January-10, 00:48, said:

Maybe someone with the above issues should avoid speedballs?

I don't see why. The OP didn't say he had a problem with rapid play; merely a problem with opponents using improper tactics. It would be a sad day when people were advised to avoid a style of play which they enjoy, merely because of someone else's misconduct. A bit like telling aspiring cyclists not to take up road racing, because of Lance Armstrong....

Personally, although I've not tried tournaments myself, I like to play at a reasonable pace - although like all non-expert players, I have moments when I need to sit back and think for a while. I believe that - like in chess - most speedball timing systems allow for that - up to a point.

[1eyedjack]

I think you missed Vampyr's point, which is that the player who is prone to play slowly, perhaps for perfectly valid reasons, is the one who should avoid playing in events that prescribe fast play, not that the fast player should boycott the game for fear of encountering such a player.

[maartenxq]

When all is said and done everyone can/should know that free automated fun is a passtime and not intended for serious bridge. In more serious tournaments you can always ask for adjustment in cases like this.

Better play there.

[lolopuffin]

I am ACBL_09 and I've directed thousands of ACBL Speedball tournaments. I've given slow play considerable thought over the years. My conclusions are much the same as those of ACBL_07's. Of course, the sanctioned (and other premium tournaments) provide the benefit of a director to help move the game along and apply ACBL rules. We pay our dollar to have a director and pay table fees to ACBL for the masterpoint record keeping and other services. The fees also help to support the staffing and other costs of providing free play and other programs.

We don't have that service for the free express tournaments and I'm sure it is annoying to think there are players who might use tricks and techniques to score a better result on these free games. We all know it makes no sense, since there are no points to be earned, no fees invested and only a quick flash of the results for any one game. Statistically, it seems, the frequency is minimal but our goal is to have a fast, fair and fun tournament for all.

Concerning slow play, here are just a few thoughts on some of the issues we see:
1. "I'm not slow! Everyone else at the table is slow! " Almost always, this player is not telling a golly whopper lie. If their connection is bad, information to and from BBO is held up, rather like the hesitation in your car if your fuel injectors are bad. Thanks to ACBL_07, we are able to look up timing matters on the table record and determine who has a problem. We can then suggest they contact BBO Support to improve the situation. Meanwhile, we will place a temporary sub to play while the player tries the quick fix to refresh the connection.
2. "Our opps are purposely slow/running out the time/communicating" Ugly assumptions, to be sure. We are aware that some players have physical difficulties. We do our best to accommodate all players, just as we would in a live game. When a player gets behind, we place a sub and/or adjust inevitable results on the current hand (all trump, all high cards, no way to fail). "Running out the time" can't happen if the TD is called to help timely. Waiting 2-3 minutes for a bid eliminates the fix. If TDs are having difficulties getting subs, an avg- avg+ can be assigned. No one wins on 40% As for the extremely rare "communicating" issue, if the TD is called after 15 seconds and a sub is placed, communication becomes moot.
3. "I didn't want to be rude by calling TD" and "Why did you kick me out of the tournament?" It's not rude to help keep speedball on track. Calling TD is the best solution and we can help. The players can only beg/holler/get mad. Placing a temporary sub is not a punishment. We reseat the player after they refresh connection.
4. "Why do we let slow players play Speedball. They should play other games." Let's face it, everyone wants to play the big game We want to include everyone and do our best to help all tables achieve a final and fair result on each round. All players can help by a "dispassionate/assuming no malice" call to the TD, if a player is having a slowness problem. Also, volunteering to enter the sub list is vital Please consider doing this, as you would at your live clubs.

[The Axe]

The source of customer dissatisfaction is the perceived lack of uniformity in responses to slow play and other irregularities. No one is complaining about being replaced by a robot after 30 seconds in an express game. It is simply a rule of play in express games and it is uniformly enforced for everyone. Slow play is dealt with the same way every time for every player.

Compare this to a speedball game. Slow play will be addressed only if another player calls attention to it. It may be addressed after 15 seconds or two minutes depending on who is playing. In the case where a director tries to deal with slow play, there are a variety of possible outcomes: a player may be encouraged to play in tempo; a player may be warned that they will be replaced for slow play; a player may be temporarily or permanently replaced by a substitute.

Whenever a table exceeds its allotted 14 minutes per round, an adjusted result is assigned. Note that the penalty for slow play assessed in live play at a club or tournament, i.e., a procedural penalty, is never assessed. Although the adjusted results may be uniformly determined, there is a widespread perception that there is a lack of uniformity in assigned results. Sometimes GIB projections are used, sometimes they are not, and other times still different methods are used.

Further, it makes no difference if slow play is the result of poor connections, difficult hands, rudeness, or deliberate delay. This only adds to the perceived inequity of treatment for non-offending players.

For offenses resulting from different causes, there are several possible outcomes. This is the root of nearly all customer dissatisfaction.

There is a secondary effect that degrades the quality of games for customers. In a live game, there are only a handful of director calls in an entire session. There are often dozens of director calls every round in BBO's ACBL tournaments. It appears that BBO is undermining the value and authority of directors by encouraging an unreasonable and incredible degree of director intervention. In any business, unreasonable expectations result in good employees leaving and poor employees staying. If management turns good employees into poor ones, ultimately customers are adversely affected.

A benefit to BBO of reducing the number of director calls to a level comparable to live play is that the number of directors per session could be reduced. Director compensation and corporate profitability could both benefit from eliminating demands on directors for correcting slow play. The quality of director performance should increase when their efforts are directed to problems that require human insight and decisions, not mechanical problems that are solved by computer applications (Customers already benefit from the elimination of common problems in live bridge like bidding or play out of turn, misdeals, and revokes.)

The solution is to deal with every instance of slow play equally, and it is already available to BBO. In speedball games, players should be replaced after a fixed period of lack of response (such as 20-40 seconds) by a robot. Trying to replace with human substitutes simply takes too long and creates more variability in the ability and play of replacements. Furthermore, it is very difficult to find players willing to substitute at the end of a tournament. Perhaps players who were replaced by robots could reenter a tournament at the conclusion of a board or round; experimenting to find an optimal result seems like a reasonable idea.

Players should be assessed uniform procedural penalties for unfinished boards in a round. There should be no negotiating or litigating adjusted boards with directors, which is time consuming and distasteful -- and completely unnecessary. The consequences of slow play should be the same for everyone all the time, and they should be at least mildly unpleasant if they are to be effective.

BBO and its ACBL tournaments provide a wonderful service for customers, and all any of us are looking for is a fair deal.

[vreemde]

To call a director in speedball and type in "slow opp" probably takes 10-15 seconds. Has BBO considered adding a new button entitled "Call director - slow opp" or similar? This would save the 10-15 seconds wasted creating a director call.