[Jinksy]

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Is 3♣ forcing?

Would it make a difference if the doubler were a passed hand?

[Phil]

Can't see this as forcing but I also doubt im making the call with a minimum and decent hearts / so-so clubs.

I don't think this is parallel to a 2/1 auction where a similar auction promises extras. We don't have a fit and may be trying to scramble

[broze]

Not forcing - even though dbl shows nothing in the way of clubs. I think it shows 5-5.

[mike777]

Good question.

It seems to make life easier if it is forcing 1R. In other words opener shows extras and promises a rebid after 3c.

that means with less one must rebid 2h or 2s or 2nt to slow responder down with a minimum 5-5 hand type.

I don't think we want pard to jumpshift or cuebid 3d with every hand that does have extras. IN other words you pick your poison that you choose to live with. Of course if you do make a neg x then you must be prepared if partner makes a minimum rebid. With a problem hand you might just pass and not make a neg x.

NO I don't think it would make a difference if pard is a passed hand.

[mgoetze]

I was a bit disappointed by this thread - after the title I thought it was going to be about something interesting like (1♥)-X-1♠-2♣.

[lycier]

Non-forcing,I take 3♣ as 5-4.

[iandayre]

The more interesting question is, would 4C have been forcing? By the standard rules of advancing negative doubles, it is not. (bid the full extent of your hand, only a cuebid is forcing). But this can be awkward and I am sure some/many would consider this forcing today.

[mike777]

Yes it does not seem best to have to cuebid 3d to show extras. The downside of playing 3c F1 is that 2h becomes your default rebid with minimum hands and responder needs to be prepared for that.

THis is yet another example of the problems of opening minimum hands with short spades.

You choose whether you force with 3d or jump with extras or you live with the problem of rebidding 2h with default minimums. It seems to me rebidding 3c with minimum hands and no fit may not be best.

I am not making any claims using 2h as default bid is without problems, problems that opener and responder need to be aware and ready to handle. At the very least responder knows you deny extras, stoppers or 4s and you are a level lower and it is easier to show extras and conserve space.

[Jinksy]

Does everyone who thinks 3♣ is NF also think 2♦ in the auction 1♣ (1M) X / 2♦ is NF? If not, what is the significant distinction between them? That a 'negative' X when opener has shown 5+ hearts really does deny hearts, whereas one after a 1C opening could easily have club support?

If so it would make sense, though with eg Kxxxx xx KJxxx x (and potentially even greater dist when too weak for a 2-level bid and too spadey to pass), would responder not bid the same?

[helene_t]

Jinksy, on 2016-January-07, 07:10, said:

Does everyone who thinks 3♣ is NF also think 2♦ in the auction 1♣ (1M) X / 2♦ is NF? If not, what is the significant distinction between them?

I have mixed feelings about that one.

I concende that the difference is not great. But in the latter aution, we can bid 1NT or 2♣ if we don't have the strength for 2♦. We could also do that in the OP auction but 2NT with a dubious stopper is worse than 1NT with a dubious stopper. And, playing 5-card majors, repeating a 5-card clubs is better than repeating a 5-card hearts.

OTOH, in the OP aution we would have to jump to 4♣, bypassing 3NT, if we want to show a good hand with clubs while 3♣ is NF.

So probably it should be the same. Or at least, 1♣ (1♥) X (pass) 2♦ should be NF as responder has shown exactly four spades so we must have a minor suit fit.

[lycier]

Quote

Does everyone who thinks 3♣ is NF also think 2♦ in the auction 1♣ (1M) X / 2♦ is NF? If not, what is the significant distinction between them? That a 'negative' X when opener has shown 5+ hearts really does deny hearts, whereas one after a 1C opening could easily have club support?

I seems likely there are still confusion on " reverse bid without interference" and rebid after negative double with interference.
I should say that a reverse bid is sure to be forcing , however after negative double, 1♣ opener rebid 2♦ is NF and shape-showing bid. If really with considerable extra values, opener should jump 3♦ as forcing bid with GF.
This is the general rule of bidding.

[Jinksy]

lycier, on 2016-January-07, 08:41, said:

I seems likely there are still confusion on " reverse bid without interference" and rebid after negative double with interference.
I should say that a reverse bid is sure to be forcing , however after negative double, 1♣ opener rebid 2♦ is NF and shape-showing bid. If really with considerable extra values, opener should jump 3♦ as forcing bid with GF.
This is the general rule of bidding.

No it isn't.

The sequence has been discussed on this forum, and a number of strong players prefer to play the 2♦ rebid as a forcing reverse, at least after a 1♠ overcall (though Helen's point that it might be different over a 1♥ overcall is something I hadn't considered). This is because while your grandma played negative doubles as 'promising the two unbid suits', many people play them as 'promising the unbid major', thus giving no guarantee that 2♦ will be a playable spot with two minimum hands.

[Jinksy]

helene_t, on 2016-January-07, 07:25, said:

So probably it should be the same. Or at least, 1♣ (1♥) X (pass) 2♦ should be NF as responder has shown exactly four spades so we must have a minor suit fit.

Hadn't thought about that. But even there, our minor suit fit might be clubs, so we don't necessarily want to force to the three level with eg x Qxx KJxx AQxxx opposite Kxxx xxxx xx Kxx (though that might be getting unduly pessimistic).

[lorserker]

is 2NT (instead of 3C) lebensohl?

[mike777]

Jinksy, on 2016-January-07, 09:15, said:

Hadn't thought about that. But even there, our minor suit fit might be clubs, so we don't necessarily want to force to the three level with eg x Qxx KJxx AQxxx opposite Kxxx xxxx xx Kxx (though that might be getting unduly pessimistic).

First off yet another example of the problem of opening minimum hands with short spades.

With your example I think your options are 1) pass not open if allowed per system 2) rebid 2c on this auction.