[straube]

In the context of a strong club system and a 1D weak or strong response and a few relays we get to...

2H-opener forces with 5+S/4+H
.....2S-GF relay

and

2S-opener forces with 4S/5+H
.....2N-GF relay

So we have an easy +1 relay when responder holds a strong hand. We have all of the other bids available for double negative (0-4 hcp) hands. Any ideas?

The obvious over 2H would be

2N-bleh
3m-6m
3M-fit and very minimum

but I think opener will be very seldom interested in hearing about responder's long and weak minor. Instead, he'd want to know degree of fit, fit and splinter info, perhaps a working
card (like the spade Q or heart K or even any ace). These 2M rebids come up seldom so I'm looking for something useful and easy to remember. A "weak" relay?

[Kungsgeten]

Over 2H it seems that you could play Lebensohl and use the 3-level as support showing.

2H---
2S = GF relay
2N = Lebensohl
...3C = The usual bid
......Pass = Long clubs, no fit
......3D = Long diamonds, no fit
......3M = Preference, can be 7 card fit
...Other = GF? Not sure
3C = Heart fit + some SPL, not dead minimum but not GF (relay asks SPL)
3D = Spade fit + some SPL, not dead minimum but not GF (relay asks SPL)
3M = 8+ fit, no SPL, non-forcing but not dead minimum (goes via 2NT)

More complicated would be to play a form of transfer Lebensohl:

2H---
2S = GF relay
2N = Weak with clubs / support with club SPL / dead minimum major preference
...3C = Normal bid
......Pass = Long clubs
......3D = Dead minimum, puppet to 3H
......3M = Natural + club SPL
3C = Weak with diamonds / support with diamond SPL
3D = Weak with major fit and SPL in other major. 3M is pass/correct
3M = Weak with 8+ fit, no SPL, not dead minimum

[straube]

Thank you. I think using your corresponding minor idea would be easy to remember.

Maybe

2N-no fit
.....3C-5413, 5404, or 5422, nf
.....3D-5431, nf
.....3H-5/5, nf
.....3S-6/4, nf
3C-GF, heart fit
3D-GF, spade fit
3M-fit, truly nothing
4M-fit, a little more than nothing

I'd thought of using 4m as splinters, but the most likely splinter to have is opener's other major. So a little tricky to show fit for one major and shortness the other major at the same time.

[benlessard]

"but I think opener will be very seldom interested in hearing about responder's long and weak minor."

Strongly disagree.

Opener will most likely be 5431/6421/5521 vs those hand type knowing responder long minor will often make a difference.

It also allow you to get some 5m or play 3NT without a stopper. The thing I dont care is stopping at 3M. Assuming that by opener strong hand is 22+. If opener can have only 20 pts its important to stop in 2M or at least to 2S so 2S cant be a relay IMO.

2NT= GF
3m= natural weakish
3M = weak hand but showing the best minor (stopper hopefully) and no fit.
4 level = weak hand with M fit.

If you really want to stop in 3M I suggest 3D as a force to 3H to singoff in 3M.
Something like 3NT directly crap with both minors, 3D-3H-3NT crap but tolerance for majors.

[straube]

We have a way to stop in 2M with a minimum 5+/4 or 4/5+ so a hand that fears play opposite a 0-4 hand can suggest a timely stop.

Specifically, 1C-1D, 2H shows 5S/4H minimum and 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2H shows 4S/5H minimum. In those instances, 3m by responder shows a long minor and a weak hand.

Now the other day I had a 6S/5H hand that was not much more than minimum in hcps but I wanted to force game. Our auction went
1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C-2D, 2H-3D, 4S

where 2H showed the forcing hand with 5+S/4+H and 3D showed 0-4 with long diamonds. In this case pd has something like KTxxxx for diamonds and I wasn't interested in his suit at all.
I would rather have known if pd had (for example) 1-3 in the majors (potential ruff a spade), etc.

I.e. often our "forcing 2M" hands have extra distribution and not necessarily extra hcps.

At the point of 2H, we need 2S to be GF relay to stay at +1. The idea of "forcing both majors" at the point of 2H is opener isn't afraid of the 3-level.

Hopefully this explains more of what we're doing. Still looking for ideas.

[straube]

Anyone like...

After 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C-2D, 2H showing 5+S/4+H GI+

.....2S-GF relay
.....2N-0-4, other
.....3C-0-4, 2 spades
.....3D-0-4, 3 hearts and 0-1 spades
.....3M-0-4, fit and very weak, no rough of other major

After 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C-2D, 2S showing 4S/5+H GI+

.....2N-GF relay
.....3C-0-4, other
.....3D-0-4, 2H
.....3M-0-4, fit and very weak, no rough of other major

[straube]

I think you folks are right. I've been looking at hands and seems responder needs a way to show a long minor. So after 2H showing 5+S/4+H we have 2N as misfitting with no long minor
and 3m as responder's own suit.


The frustrating thing is that at the point of 2S showing 4S/5H that I'd like to keep 2N as a gf relay and that doesn't leave a weak misfitting bid without a long minor. We could use
3C as bleh and 3D as diamonds and be able to show at least one.