[straube]

I read that Glen Ashton has written a No trump structure around the use of 2C as Inverted Stayman

Here's how it works....

2C-handles most invites other than both minors, also handles some GF hands
.....2D-no major or any maximum
..........2H-5H-invitational
..........2S-5S-invitational
..........2N-invitational
...............opener checks back for major fits with a maximum
..........3m-invitational
.....2H-4 spades, minimum
..........P-5H invitational
..........2S-to play (I think)
..........2N-to play
..........3m-to play
.....2S-4 hearts, minimum
.........P-5S, invitational
..........2N-to play
..........3m-to play
..........3H-to play
.....2N-both majors, minimum
..........etc

Looks interesting.

[steve2005]

after 1N-2♣-2♦ what does responder do with a GF force hand with 1 or 2 4-card majors? I would assume 3♥/♠ but then what do you do with Smolen hands?

[straube]

The GF 5M/4+M hands don't begin with 2C; I think Glen starts them in 2D and rebids 2N but I suppose you could design it however you wanted. The GI 5M/4M hands can start with 2C and still play in the longer major after a 2D response. Here's a link to his structure...

http://www.bridgemat...com/etmnt06.pdf

It looks complicated to me, but there are some symmetries and some pretty nice things about it.

[Kungsgeten]

I haven't read the original article (will do), but to me this would make sense:

1NT-2C; 3C = Max with 4-4 majors (so this is excluded from 2C)
1NT-3C = Asks five card major, GF, could have a four card major

This would answer steve's question and also allows opener to show rather than ask:

1NT-2C; 2D-2NT;
3m = South African Texas to five card major
3M = Four card major
3NT = No major

[Zelandakh]

Kungsgeten, on 2015-November-26, 03:56, said:

I haven't read the original article (will do), but to me this would make sense:

1NT-2C; 3C = Max with 4-4 majors (so this is excluded from 2C)

This is indeed 4-4 majors and max but with the additional information of not liking clubs. 3♦ is similar but not liking diamonds and 3NT is both majors, max liking all suits.

Kungsgeten, on 2015-November-26, 03:56, said:

1NT-3C = Asks five card major, GF, could have a four card major

This is used as a diamond transfer but the desired effect is available via a 3♦ response when holding 3+ spades. With 3 hearts and <3 spades interested in a 5-3 heart fit, it looks like the correct response is 2♠.

Kungsgeten, on 2015-November-26, 03:56, said:

1NT-2C; 2D-2NT;
3m = South African Texas to five card major
3M = Four card major
3NT = No major

In the linked system, 3♣ is a general relay, 3♦ asks if 4 hearts are held, 3♥ asks about spades and 3♠ shows 5 hearts. The continuations are structured in such a way as to enable check back for a weak major suit as well as for a major fit. This sequence also highlights a major criticism of the structure, namely that each solution is individual and does not appear to follow any logical rules from one to the next. I am fairly sure some of these sequences could be moved around a little to be simpler and thus give it a lower memory overhead.

[straube]

I agree about the memory load, but the more I read through it the more it makes sense.

He uses 1N-2D, 2H-2S to start a relay for pattern (and this can get fairly high). He also uses 1N-2D, 2S-2N to ask pattern after opener has shown 4 hearts with 2S.
Makes me wonder how far you could go with this...

1N-2D (hearts to play or artificial GF ask or other things)
.....2S-4 hearts
.....2N-4 hearts and 4 spades
.....3C-5 hearts

1N-2D
.....2H-2 or 3 hearts
..........etc-other things
..........2S-GF relay
.............2N-4S
....................3D-4C
....................3H-4333
....................3S-4243
....................3N-4342
.............3C-5C
.............3D-5D
.............3H-5S
.............3S-4m4m32
.............3N-4m333

[gwnn]

I know this isn't what you asked for but Phil King has posted before about using all transfers as inv+ and have respoder bid 2C on all signoffs or various hands with four card majors. Then you need opener to bid 2H with 4S and 2S to be able to stop on the 2-level with crap, and 2N/3C with a min/max and both. Responder's 2N is a relay to 3C and is usually a signoff. Something like
1N-2C
2S-3m is then a weakish invite with clubs and spades (opener showed hearts of course), with strong hands with the same distribution transferring to clubs and bidding hearts. I don't know if it works very well but it's fun to play.

[straube]

gwnn, on 2015-November-26, 12:15, said:

I know this isn't what you asked for but Phil King has posted before about using all transfers as inv+ and have respoder bid 2C on all signoffs or various hands with four card majors. Then you need opener to bid 2H with 4S and 2S to be able to stop on the 2-level with crap, and 2N/3C with a min/max and both. Responder's 2N is a relay to 3C and is usually a signoff. Something like
1N-2C
2S-3m is then a weakish invite with clubs and spades (opener showed hearts of course). I don't know if it works very well but it's fun to play.

I don't understand. 1N-2C, 2S+ doesn't allow you to sign off in 2H.

[gwnn]

No but then you have a 5-4 fit so it's kinda like a superaccept and 3H should be tolerable. The same with 2N/3C. You can even try Garbage Stayman with 4450/3451/4351 if you pass partner's 2M hoping he has a 3-card suit in our 4-card suit if he bids it (I haven't tried this personally but that's what PhilKing does)-true, you can get to the 3-level again so maybe not garbage in the strictest sense.

[nullve]

straube, on 2015-November-26, 12:06, said:

I agree about the memory load, but the more I read through it the more it makes sense.

He uses 1N-2D, 2H-2S to start a relay for pattern (and this can get fairly high). He also uses 1N-2D, 2S-2N to ask pattern after opener has shown 4 hearts with 2S.
Makes me wonder how far you could go with this...

1N-2D (hearts to play or artificial GF ask or other things)
.....2S-4 hearts
.....2N-4 hearts and 4 spades
.....3C-5 hearts

1N-2D
.....2H-2 or 3 hearts
..........etc-other things
..........2S-GF relay
.............2N-4S
....................3D-4C
....................3H-4333
....................3S-4243
....................3N-4342
.............3C-5C
.............3D-5D
.............3H-5S
.............3S-4m4m32
.............3N-4m333

This is very similar to what I play in a context where 2♣ is Garbage Stayman:

1N-2♦ = Jacoby transfer or strong [I think of 2♦ as 'Jacoman'*, a portmanteau of 'Jacoby transfer' and 'GF Stayman']

1N-2♦; ?: [with some details intentionally left out]

2♥ = 2-3 H or 3433 [unable to make a Law-ful super-accept of H]
...(...)
...2♠ = strong (balanced?) relay
......2N = 4+S3-H, not 4333
.........3♣ = relay
............3♦+ = same as 3♦+ over 1N-2♦; 2♠-2N; but with majors reversed.
............E.g.:
............3♦ = 4+ D
...............3♥ = relay
..................3♠ = 4243
..................3N = 4342
..................4♣ = 4252
............3♥ = 5S(332) [=> 3♠ = relay]
............3♠ = 4234
............3N = 4324
............4♣ = 4225
......3♣+ = 3-S3-H or 4M333
......E.g. the "simple":
......3♣ = 5C(332) or 6C(322) [nat. continuations]
......3♦ = 5D(332) or 6D(322) [nat. continuations]
......3♥ = (4333) [ineconomical, maybe, but this pattern is often a big turnoff, anyway]
......3♠ = 2344
......3N = 3244
......4♣ = 2245
......4♦ = 2254
......Or the "symmetrical":
......3♣ = 5+ D or 3244
.........3♦ = relay
............3♥ = 5D(332) [=> 3♠ = relay]
............3♠ = 6D(322) [=> 3N = relay, since 6D(322) must be good news]
............3N = 3244
............4♣ = 2254
......3♦ = (4333) [= 3♥ = relay, I suppose]
......3♥ = 5C(322) [=> 3♠ = relay]
......3♠ = 6C(322) [=> 3N = relay, since 6C(322) must be good news]
......3N = 2344
......4♣ = 2245
2♠ = 4-5 H, not 3433 [Law-ful super-accept of H]
...2N = strong (balanced?) relay
......3♣ = 4S4H [=> 3♦ = relay]
......3♦+ = same as 3♦+ over 1N-2♦; 2♥-2♠; 2N-3♣, but with majors reversed
...(...)
2N+ = undefined

* which in turn makes me think of Jaco Pastorius, the bass player

[straube]

Thanks. That saved me a lot of work. Did you invent that or find it somewhere? Mind posting the rest of your NT structure?

[Zelandakh]

You must surely have seen 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ used as a relay like this before? It has appeared many times in various forms. I played around with the idea myself once (a long time ago) but decided I preferred the alternatives.

[straube]

Zelandakh, on 2015-November-27, 09:50, said:

You must surely have seen 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ used as a relay like this before? It has appeared many times in various forms. I played around with the idea myself once (a long time ago) but decided I preferred the alternatives.

No, I hadn't seen that one. You and I worked on 2C-2D as hearts or GF relay and I thought that was pretty cute at the time. I guess the idea has been around.

Do you have a link or anything with 1N-2D as hearts/gf relay? I'm wondering if this could be paired with 2C as inverted Stayman and then use either the rest of Glen's structure or possibly simplify it if possible without weakening it too much.

[nullve]

straube, on 2015-November-27, 09:04, said:

Thanks. That saved me a lot of work. Did you invent that or find it somewhere?

Zelandakh, on 2015-November-27, 09:50, said:

You must surely have seen 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ used as a relay like this before? It has appeared many times in various forms. I played around with the idea myself once (a long time ago) but decided I preferred the alternatives.

If the basic idea originated with me, it did so less than two years ago. (My first note on it is dated June 1, 2014.)

straube, on 2015-November-27, 09:04, said:

Mind posting the rest of your NT structure?

The remaining non-standard part of my NT structure can be found here:

http://www.bridgebas...ds/page__st__20

[glen]

For the use of 1NT-2♦ as a transfer/relay, we used this in 2001-2002, and it is described in ETM Victory as Jacoby Stayman (this was me being funny) on page 63, and details starting on page 66:

ETM Victory

I arrived at this since Bergen/Cohen were recommending to always super accept Jacoby transfers with 4+ in M. I determined that this was viable for hearts (since if you have a 9+ card heart fit, the opponents often have an 8+ spade fit, and trying to stop in 2H lets them in). I had played Forcing Stayman back when I played a weak trump in the early 80s, so it seemed feasible to blend the two together.

The ETM Victory 1NT-2C Stayman structure had "Delayed Scanian", which should have been useful but it turns out only really needed in bidding contests (where you want to avoid 3NT that everybody gets to).

Later the great Jeff Rubens wrote about Inverted Stayman in The Bridge World, and I grafted that on to a complete notrump structure called EMT Notrump 06, where 06 is 2006.

I didn't use the structure, and now almost a decade later, I can't remember why I made the design decisions I did, though if I studied it I could figure things out. I do know that I had identified Choice of Games was a big success factor, and if anything the structure could even use more COG.

Thus Straube is more an authority on this structure that I am at this time

[nullve]

glen, on 2015-November-27, 14:10, said:

For the use of 1NT-2♦ as a transfer/relay, we used this in 2001-2002, and it is described in ETM Victory as Jacoby Stayman (this was me being funny) on page 63, and details starting on page 66:

ETM Victory

I can easily have been influenced by glen, since I've stumbled upon the 'ETM Victory' document several times.

[straube]

Glen, do you recall how you handled 5M4+m? Like 1N-2H appears to be used for both spade hands as well as long minor (diamond?) hands and I'm wondering how
5143 vs 5035 vs 5242 would show shape. I think there's not room enough, but I'm not sure. It seems you often 1) show a suit of interest 2) show shortness and then 3) look
for fit after that.

My own NT structure uses 1N-3D to show anything from 3415 to 3307. Like many structures, fit-finding comes after shortness because there are too many hand types to show before 3N has passed and identifying shortness gives a good approximation for mesh.

[glen]

straube, on 2015-November-27, 15:30, said:

Glen, do you recall how you handled 5M4+m? Like 1N-2H appears to be used for both spade hands as well as long minor (diamond?) hands and I'm wondering how
5143 vs 5035 vs 5242 would show shape. I think there's not room enough, but I'm not sure. It seems you often 1) show a suit of interest 2) show shortness and then 3) look
for fit after that.

My own NT structure uses 1N-3D to show anything from 3415 to 3307. Like many structures, fit-finding comes after shortness because there are too many hand types to show before 3N has passed and identifying shortness gives a good approximation for mesh.

With 5242/5224/2542/2524 the concept was that without a M fit you were heading towards 3NT. So instead the focus was just on whether OM was weak or not, since OM was the mostly likely lead. In addition m was deliberately kept hidden so if the opponents led a minor it might be responder's second suit.

So 1NT-2red;-2M-3NT COG with weak OM
and 1NT-2red;-2M-cheapest;-cheapest-3NT is COG not weak in OM

With 5242/5224/2542/2524 slam interest there are specific auctions, such as 1NT-2H;-2S-3D 5-5+ blacks or 5-2-2-4 slam try

A lot of this structure was around finding a 5-3 fit if opener has 5 in OM

5143/5134/1543/1534 go 1NT-2red;-2M-3♣, which handles shortness in OM. 5035 can go this route, but was intended to bid 1NT-2H;-2S-3D.

[straube]

Thank you.