[Kungsgeten]

When playing a "medium" club (Polish/Swedish), where 1♣ is weak NT or strong, some choose to expand the range of the 1♦ opening in order to unload the 1♣ opening. Can it be worthwhile to increase the range of 1♥ too? DavidC seems to think so: http://dcrcbridge.bl...olish-club.html

Me and partner has removed 17--19 NT from our 1♣ opening, and also 17--19 with 5+ diamonds. This makes 1♣: 12-14 NT, not 5M332 / 18--19 5M332 / 17--19 unbal but not primary diamonds / 20+ any.

Our 1M opening shows 11--16 with 5+M, 11--14 if balanced. How much do you think it would hurt the 1♥ opening if we added 18--19 5♥332 and 17--19 5♥ and 4+m? The idea is to make it easier if we open 1♣ and they bid spades, since now opener's heart reopening bid is either 6+ hearts or 20+. The whole opening structure would look like this:

1♣ = 12--14 NT (not 5M332 but may be 4-4-1-4) or 17+ not covered by bids below.
1♦ = 11--19 unbalanced with 4+♦. May have longer clubs if 11--16.
1♥ = 11--19 with 5+♥. If 5♥332 then 11--14 or 18--19. If 17--19 unbal then exactly 5♥ and 4+m.
1♠ = 11--16 with 5+♠. If 5♠332 then 11--14.
1NT = 15--17. May have 4-4-1-4. May have 5M332.
2♣ = (11)12--16 with 6+♣ or 5♣ and 4M.
2♦ = 18--19 NT. Not 5M332.
Higher = Weak to taste

The frequencies for the different openings would be something like:

1♣ 11.65% (about 30% strong, 70% weak)
1♦ 6.61%
1♥ 6.37%
1♠ 6.28%
1NT 4.93%
2♣ 3.4%
2♦ 1.14%

After the 1♣ opening 1M is natural and GF vs 17+, while 1NT and 2♣ are transfers and GF vs 17+. 2♦/♥/♠ are artificial. This leads to 1♦ being negative (ca 0--7) or a 4333/4432 hand with no 4 card major and about 8--10 hcp (too weak to invite vs 12--14).

The rebids after the negative diamond would be something like this:

1♣--1♦;
Pass = 12--14 NT, usually 5♦
1♥ = F1. 12--14 NT with (3)4♥ or 5♣ / Any unbal hand with Acol strength: about (19)20--22(23)
1♠ = NF. 12--14 NT with (3)4♠ / 17--19 with 4+♠ (not 4333 nor 4432), hearts or clubs may be longer
1NT = F1. 22+ NT or unbal GF not covered by bids below
2♣ = 5+♣ unbal, 17--19 and less than 4 spades.
2♦ = 20--21 NT
2♥ = 17--19, 6+♥
2♠ = Natural GF
2NT to 3♦ = GF covering all 5-5 hands
3M/4m = Natural GF, sets trump

[wank]

I gave up and stopped reading at this, "I don't believe that playing limited openings is an end in itself."

[mgoetze]

wank, on 2015-November-23, 10:04, said:

I gave up and stopped reading at this, "I don't believe that playing limited openings is an end in itself."

LOL, I was about to post exactly the same thing.

[Kungsgeten]

Yes his posts are long and could be better formatted. In another post he writes this:

Quote

All in all, it is not the immediate definition of maximum strength which is the advantage of limited openings. Rather, limited openings are a way of re-arranging the meanings of opener's rebids, in the hope that hands will be better defined after the second call (and with easier continuations) than if you were using unlimited openings. But of course there are very many other ways you might try to do this, and it should be better to analyse the various hand types more closely, trying to find the best way to show shape on unbalanced hands and strength on balanced hands.

By "second" call I guess he also includes pass, if the opponents interfere.

[wank]

but he's just wrong. the main advantage of precision for example is those lovely 1M 4M auctions where 4th hand is just taking it hard. obviously, the wider you make your 1M openings the less you can just bid game in response.

[Kungsgeten]

He comments on this too

Quote

The most well-known example of this is responder's direct raise to 4 of opener's major. In natural systems this bid would only be made on a weakish but distributional hand, based on excellent trump support. But in Precision it is also possible to raise directly to game with stronger hands: those which are worth game based on high-card strength, maybe 13 HCP or so with 3-card support. By reaching your best contract in two bids you avoid giving information away to the opponents, and if an opponent has a hand which might be worth competing over the game bid, it will be more difficult for him to judge correctly now that the jump does not promise a big fit. However, responder is aiming at quite a small target here. Even opposite a very limited opening, there are not very many hands that can be certain of wanting to play in game but also fairly confident that there is no slam available. Opener may be limited in high-card strength, but he is not limited in distribution, and there are very often some well-fitting distributional hands which would make slam good. And also, if the opponents do compete, it is now opener who is disadvantaged by not knowing responder's hand.

And some more:

Quote

In any case, the immediate raise to 4 is rather a special auction. There are not many other situations where the limited opening bid is immediately useful to responder. For example, if opener's LHO overcalls 3C, then responder will have to bid 3NT (say) on almost exactly the same hands as he would if the opening bid was unlimited. Of course, when holding a good hand for the bid, responder will be happier opposite a limited opening because this reduces the chance that a slam will be missed. But the point is that when opener has a weaker hand the bidding will be the same after a limited opening as it would have been after an unlimited one.

[wank]

it sounds like he's not bidding 4M enough then. you bid it a lot, even if you might miss slam on occasion. if opener has significant extra shape that's just sad (he'll often upgrade to 1c). a good rule of thumb is bid game if you can't make slam opposite 5431.

on occasion you'll even get to slam anyway - if opener has a lot of extra shape, so do the opps, then 4th hand bids, and opener on the way to 5h shows something and responder reevaluates.

[steve2005]

wank, on 2015-November-23, 10:35, said:

but he's just wrong. the main advantage of precision for example is those lovely 1M 4M auctions where 4th hand is just taking it hard. obviously, the wider you make your 1M openings the less you can just bid game in response.

Yes, I could never understand why people play medium club (Polish/Swedish) it seems to have most of the disadvantages of Precision, but what are the gains?

[Kungsgeten]

steve2005, on 2015-November-23, 13:38, said:

Yes, I could never understand why people play medium club (Polish/Swedish) it seems to have most of the disadvantages of Precision, but what are the gains?

I guess that depends on how strong the strong 1C variant is. When playing strong club I've played 1C as 15+ (Moscito), 16+ but 18-20 or 23+ if balanced, and 17+. I've also played two way pass (0-7 / 17+) where the major showing openings were 8-11. If playing the most common version of Swedish club, 1M is 11-16, 11-13 if balanced. This to me is very similar to Precision, but perhaps the extra point makes some difference. In Polish club 1M is usually 11-17. My experience is from playing Swedish club, compared to Precision:

- Weak NT is treated better, especially in competition, in Swedish club
- Hands with diamonds are treated better in Swedish club
- Hands with 4 diamonds and 5 clubs are treated better in Swedish club
- There is (much) less need of a three-suited 2D or 2H bid in Swedish club.
- The opponents usually do not bid with nothing vs Swedish club. On hands where they do bid though you are usually better of playing strong club.
- The worst part of Swedish club is the 2C opening, here strong club is better.
- in an uncontested auction the slam bidding should be better playing Precision after opening 1C, but mostly so if using relays. Relays can be used in Swedish club too, but then the weak NT hands risks missing some major fits.
- It is much easier to play transfer positives over Precision, which might rightside contracts.

By Precision I mean 2+ 1D and 6+ 2C, but the upsides and downsides are about the same in a system where 2D is natural, I would guess.

[Zelandakh]

steve2005, on 2015-November-23, 13:38, said:

Yes, I could never understand why people play medium club (Polish/Swedish) it seems to have most of the disadvantages of Precision, but what are the gains?

The original point of these systems was to "protect" the strong 1♣ opening by including a weak NT, thus making it more difficult for the opponents to come in on rubbish. They also protect the weak NT hands quite well in most cases. The limit of 17, as opposed to 15, 19 or 22ish, has also been chosen with a specific goal in mind. This range still includes strong rebids but avoids the necessity of Responder giving false preference just in case Opener has a maximum. What it means is that the structure is generally more efficient at the cost of not having any particular strength. Personally I think it is the best compromise of all and it was pretty much the first design decision I made when creating a new system.

[rhm]

steve2005, on 2015-November-23, 13:38, said:

Yes, I could never understand why people play medium club (Polish/Swedish) it seems to have most of the disadvantages of Precision, but what are the gains?

If the disadvantage of standard is their unlimited strength, cutting down on this must be worthwhile.
You could simply argue Precision goes to extremes.
In standard systems you might have to differentiate minimum hands from hands with one king, two kings and even 3 kings more than that and it often can not be done, in particular if opponents interfere.
The latter (3 kings more are hands worth a 2♣ opening but unsuitable otherwise)
In medium systems the idea is that you can have at most one king more than minimum (12-14 or 11-13).
If you can not see the benefit you have never played such a system.

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

Zelandakh, on 2015-November-25, 08:08, said:

The original point of these systems was to "protect" the strong 1♣ opening by including a weak NT, thus making it more difficult for the opponents to come in on rubbish.

A myth.
These system were not a brainchild of anyone, different to most strong club systems.
Swedish club is basically a variant developed out of Polish club and Polish club developed out of the Vienna system.
In all old natural systems with few exceptions like Acol, the base is a strong notrump opening. So weak notrumnps were opened with one of a minor in 5 card major systems.
40 years ago in Germany forerunners of Polish club were popular called Small-Big Club. (Kleine-Grosse Treff)
People simply realized that it might make sense to put strong hands into one 1♣, because 1♣ could take the additional load and it would keep the bidding lower when holding a strong hand.
You sort of automatically reverse when you bid a second suit. No need for jump rebids to the three level.

When people started to interfere against strong club systems they found they had a problem against such club systems. But these systems were not designed with such interference in mind.

Rainer Herrmann

[Kungsgeten]

rhm, on 2015-November-27, 04:12, said:

Swedish club is basically a variant developed out of Polish club and Polish club

Swedish Club was popularized by the Carrot team: Anders Morath, Sven-Olof Flodqvist, Hans Göthe and others. They started with a Blue Club inspired system called Morotsklövern:

1C = 16+, 18+ if bal
1D = 4+ diamonds, may have longer clubs
1M = 4+ major, may have longer clubs
1NT = 13--17. 15--17 if holding a four card major.
2C = 6+ clubs
2D = Multi
2M = Roman
2NT = 5+ diamonds and 4 clubs, opening strength
3C = Long and strong club suit

Later they experimented with a pass system called Carotti:

Pass = Any 12--16 unbal or 15--17 NT
1C = 9--11(12) NT or any 17(18)+
1D = Fert 0--7
1M = 4+ major (not 4432/4333), 8--11
1NT = 12--14
2m = 8--11 unbal no major
2M/2NT = Weak two-suiters

After this they went back to the original system but introduced the two-way club:

1C = 10--12 NT or 17+ any
1D+ = As "Morotsklövern"

They then developed Magic Diamond (a strong diamond system inspired by Carotti, since Carotti wan't legal to play due to changed rules) and yet another system called O'Carrot:

1C = 11--13 NT or 17+
1NT = 14-16
Other = As "Morotsklövern", but 1M is never 4432/4333

And later a system called Swan was created, which perhaps is the one most known today (and most similar to Polish):

1C = 11--13 NT or 17+
1D = 4+
1M = 5+
1NT = 14-16
2C = 5+
2D = Precision
2M = Weak
2NT = 21--23

Then there were other Swedish Club systems where 1C was 8--10 NT or strong (17+ in the case of Cloudberry Club, but only 15+ in the case of Tangerine Club). Most of these used four card major though. The Swedish natural standard system (called Modern Standard) uses four card majors and 15-17 NT, so I would say that this is were Swedish Club has its roots, not in Polish club.

[straube]

rhm, on 2015-November-27, 03:53, said:

If the disadvantage of standard is their unlimited strength, cutting down on this must be worthwhile.
You could simply argue Precision goes to extremes.
In standard systems you might have to differentiate minimum hands from hands with one king, two kings and even 3 kings more than that and it often can not be done, in particular if opponents interfere.
The latter (3 kings more are hands worth a 2♣ opening but unsuitable otherwise)
In medium systems the idea is that you can have at most one king more than minimum (12-14 or 11-13).
If you can not see the benefit you have never played such a system.

Rainer Herrmann

If one thinks standard with a strong 2C opening is one extreme and Precision with a strong (16+) 1C opening is the other extreme, one might want to explore a strong diamond (18+). To me that seems a more apples to apples comparison than a 1C that is either minimum or 18+.