[rhm]

 Cyberyeti, on 2015-November-23, 03:40, said:

In this sequence it probably doesn't matter, but being able to bid 2♦ over 2♣ 4SF rather than having to bid over 2♦ could make a lot of difference in terms of space.

I understand that. This is not too difficult to grasp.
But what do you suggest instead?

1) If 2♣ is game forcing the question arises what do you do with invitational hands?
It is nice being able to stop in 2♠ with 4 card support and an invitational hand or in 2♥ with hearts and an invitational hand.

2) If 2♣ is not game forcing, there must be non forcing sequences thereafter.
Does this not defeat the advantage of being one step lower with a game forcing hand?
For example: How do I distinguish a game forcing hand with hearts from one with invitational values thereafter, if the bidding starts 1?♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦?
If I have to jump to 3♥ with a game force where is the advantage?

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

 rhm, on 2015-November-23, 05:23, said:

I understand that. This is not too difficult to grasp.
But what do you suggest instead?

1) If 2♣ is game forcing the question arises what do you do with invitational hands?
It is nice being able to stop in 2♠ with 4 card support and an invitational hand or in 2♥ with hearts and an invitational hand.

2) If 2♣ is not game forcing, there must be non forcing sequences thereafter.
Does this not defeat the advantage of being one step lower with a game forcing hand?
For example: How do I distinguish a game forcing hand with hearts from one with invitational values thereafter, if the bidding starts 1?♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦?
If I have to jump to 3♥ with a game force where is the advantage?

Rainer Herrmann

We play it non GF but we play 1♦-1♥-1♠-2♥ as inv so going thru 4SF is forcing.

[jogs]

2♣ is the best bid. We want to know if partner has wasted values in clubs.

3♣ or 2NT by opener means there are wasted club values. We should just show the spade support and allow opener to make moves towards slam.
Other rebids by opener means all HCP are working.

♠ KQxx ♥ Kx ♦ QJxx ♣ xxx

Isn't this a nearly 50% chance for slam? And opener rates to hold a better hand.

[lycier]

Sorry,I'm not expert.
It should say that XYZ convention still is a expert bidding tool.
For this hand,it would better employ XYZ and bid 2♦ to make a system bid of game forcing,its advantange is obviously :
1- GF and save room,let opener describe in further.
2- investigate whether opener has 3-card support in ♥.
3-

1♦ - 1♥
1♠
1♠ says " I have a unbalanced hand",so responder should conform whether voidness is valid and also need to reevaluate both of hands so as to probe for slam or sign off at 4M.

[lycier]

 jogs, on 2015-November-23, 15:33, said:

2♣ is the best bid. We want to know if partner has wasted values in clubs.

3♣ or 2NT by opener means there are wasted club values. We should just show the spade support and allow opener to make moves towards slam.
Other rebids by opener means all HCP are working.

♠ KQxx ♥ Kx ♦ QJxx ♣ xxx

Isn't this a nearly 50% chance for slam? And opener rates to hold a better hand.

Sorry,I'm not expert.
If really holding ♠ KQxx ♥ Kx ♦ QJxx ♣ xxx,after responding 1♥,opener would better rebid 1nt to show the balanced hand instead of 1♠.

[gwnn]

lycier, read the opening post again:

Quote

Partner could still be balanced,

Maybe you prefer opener to promise an unbalanced hand with 1♠, but Fluffy (in this hand) does not play that way.

[benlessard]

This hand is a good example why i think its poor to play splinter that can be either void /singleton.

I much prefer to go slow with the singleton hands and show my hand right aways with the voids. If you get voids hand and dont want to splinter with them than you know youve got a problem.

[rmnka447]

I'm also bidding 2 ♦ here and waiting to hear more. Right now, the hand could end up in game or slam in any of the 3 suits bid. So I want to hear more about partner's hand.

[lycier]

 gwnn, on 2015-November-24, 06:35, said:

Maybe you prefer opener to promise an unbalanced hand with 1♠, but Fluffy (in this hand) does not play that way.

Ok.
If rebid-1♠ don't promise unbalanced hand,or can't imply 4-card with 5+ cards ♦,I think playing XYZ is meaningless.
If don't employ XYZ,of course,2♣ is a best choice.
Thank you very much.

[jogs]

 lycier, on 2015-November-24, 20:44, said:

Ok.
If rebid-1♠ don't promise unbalanced hand,or can't imply 4-card with 5+ cards ♦,I think playing XYZ is meaningless.

You're confusing 1 level with 2 level. 1♠ promises 4-card diamonds, nothing more. Some partnerships rebid 1♠ with 4=3=3=3.
Responder may be 4-4 in the majors with a hand which can't bid over 1NT.

Let's return to my original hand.

♠ KQxx ♥ Kx ♦ QJxx ♣ xxx

This was to illustrate that when all points are working it doesn't take much for slam.

Improve the hand.

♠ KQxx ♥ Kx ♦ Axxx ♣ xxx

Now nearly everyone would open. 1♠ would show where the strength is located and 6♠ is a good contract.

Change the hand again.

♠ xxxx ♥ Kx ♦ QJxx ♣ KQx

You are not required to rebid 1♠ with every 4-card spade suit. Now 1NT would describe this hand better.
We probably belong in 3NT. With weak spades don't suggest a contract in the 4-4 spades.

[mcphee]

Simple is great and the idea that a 3!C leap should be short is sensible, however many play that jumps from responder show 5-5+ GF values, also sensible. I like 4th suit here to hear a helpful rebid and later show S support.

[lycier]

 jogs, on 2015-November-24, 22:47, said:

You're confusing 1 level with 2 level. 1♠ promises 4-card diamonds, nothing more. Some partnerships rebid 1♠ with 4=3=3=3.
Responder may be 4-4 in the majors with a hand which can't bid over 1NT.

Let's return to my original hand.

♠ KQxx ♥ Kx ♦ QJxx ♣ xxx

This was to illustrate that when all points are working it doesn't take much for slam.

Improve the hand.

♠ KQxx ♥ Kx ♦ Axxx ♣ xxx

Now nearly everyone would open. 1♠ would show where the strength is located and 6♠ is a good contract.

Change the hand again.

♠ xxxx ♥ Kx ♦ QJxx ♣ KQx

You are not required to rebid 1♠ with every 4-card spade suit. Now 1NT would describe this hand better.
We probably belong in 3NT. With weak spades don't suggest a contract in the 4-4 spades.

Hi Jogs :

Quote

You're confusing 1 level with 2 level. 1♠ promises 4-card diamonds, nothing more. Some partnerships rebid 1♠ with 4=3=3=3.

I am very surprised by what you said,Usually rebid-1♠ imply 4-card ♠ with 5+ cards ♦,of course,unless holding 4441.
But some partnerships rebid-1♠ with 4=3=3=3,that is personal agreement ,usually they don't play walsh as responding principle,don't play XYZ,they play "up the line" and nmf.

Quote

Let's return to my original hand.

♠ KQxx ♥ Kx ♦ QJxx ♣ xxx

If employ XYZ,generally speaking,it should play walsh with canape style.According to this logic thought,after 1♦ - 1♥,opener usually rebid 1N instead of 1♠,showing the balanced hand because opener has no obligation to look for major fit.
Sorry,I am not expert. If I have a mistake in this hand,would everyone tell me?
Thank you for your reply.

Lycier

[jogs]

From Max Hardy's original book Five Card Majors, Western Style(1974) page 12.

Hand c) ♠ AQxx ♥ Kxx ♦ Kxxx ♣ Jx

Hardy recommends: 1♦ - 1♥; 1♠.

Lycier, think you're confusing this auction with 1♣ - 1♦. Here 1♦ denies a 4-card major when weak. I still rebid strong 4-card majors whenever there is also a 4-card club suit.

[lycier]

 jogs, on 2015-November-25, 08:40, said:

From Max Hardy's original book Five Card Majors, Western Style(1974) page 12.

Hand c) ♠ AQxx ♥ Kxx ♦ Kxxx ♣ Jx

Hardy recommends: 1♦ - 1♥; 1♠.

Lycier, think you're confusing this auction with 1♣ - 1♦. Here 1♦ denies a 4-card major when weak. I still rebid strong 4-card majors whenever there is also a 4-card club suit.

Why confusing always for me? My approach is just from Max Hardy's original book " Advance bridge bidding for the 21th century (2002)" before dying.I am sure that your approach is a old standard,it ihave been eliminated,out of fashion.
As for you said " Here 1♦ denies a 4-card major when weak. ",I have to say No. Even if weak, opening 1♦ never deny 4-card major,Max Hardy's approach is playing Walsh with Canape style,after 1♦ - 1♥,opener will rebid own second suit with unbalanced hand,if holding balanced hand,opener should rebid 1N instead of suit,this is just normal description.
Please remember that opener has no obligation to look for major fit, The balance of hand is key.
If you don't agree with me,I am willing to go on discussing in futher.

[jogs]

 lycier, on 2015-November-25, 09:49, said:

As for you said " Here 1♦ denies a 4-card major when weak. ",I have to say No. Even if weak, opening 1♦ never deny 4-card major,

No, I didn't write opening 1♦ denies a 4-card major.

After a 1♣ opening, responding 1♦ denies a 4-card major when weak.

Those two statements are different.

Quote

Please remember that opener has no obligation to look for major fit, The balance of hand is key.
If you don't agree with me,I am willing to go on discussing in futher.

I never read Hardy's last book. I certainly agree there is no obligation to find a 4-4 major fit.
Balance of the hand is just one of the important features. The real key is will the 4-4 major fit
play better than 3NT? It depends where the honor cards are located. Opposite Fluffy's 4=6=3=0 hand
honors in clubs are duplication for a 4-4 spade fit. No club honors means all points are working into
the other three suits. It really improves our chances of making 6♠.

[gnasher]

 jogs, on 2015-November-22, 16:09, said:

Am I the only seeing that Fluffy has posted the East hand?

He made a punctuation error as well. It's amazing that anyone understood what he was asking.

[Stephen Tu]

 lycier, on 2015-November-25, 09:49, said:

As for you said " Here 1♦ denies a 4-card major when weak. ",I have to say No. Even if weak, opening 1♦ never deny 4-card major,Max Hardy's approach is playing Walsh with Canape style,after 1♦ - 1♥,opener will rebid own second suit with unbalanced hand,if holding balanced hand,opener should rebid 1N instead of suit,this is just normal description.
Please remember that opener has no obligation to look for major fit, The balance of hand is key.
If you don't agree with me,I am willing to go on discussing in futher.

Lycier, what to bid after 1♦-1♥ with 4x4x balanced minimum is a style issue. There are advantages and disadvantages both ways. The advantage of bidding 1♠ is you don't miss 4-4 spade fits when responder is 4-4 in the majors or 4-5, and too weak to make a checkback (NMF or xyz or other) bid, around 10- points. The advantages of bidding 1nt are:
- make it easier to find diamond partial if 1♠ promise 5♦ or 4144
- concealment, harder to defend NT contract if declarer does not reveal spade length
- easier to get to 5-2/5-3 heart fit partial since responder can just bid 2♥ over 1nt, but can't over 1♠.
- fewer shapes to disambiguate after 1♦-1♥-1♠-(artificial game force).

The situation is different after 1♣-1♦, playing Walsh, because then responder cannot have weak hand and 4 cd major. You can't miss 4-4 major fit opposite a weak responder in that case. The same is not true after 1♣-1♥ or 1♦-1♥. There are no "Walsh" inferences here, you misread Hardy because he is not in the "always rebid 1nt when balanced" camp. He only does that after 1♣-1♦.

There are different styles, all have their advocates:
1. Always bid 1♠
2. Always bid 1nt.
3. Bid 1♠ with 4432, but rebid 1nt with 4333
4. Make judgement call based on suit quality/shape/honor placement.

[lycier]

Stephen Tu, you said too well,and did a really good job!

[steve2005]

 Cyberyeti, on 2015-November-23, 03:40, said:

In this sequence it probably doesn't matter, but being able to bid 2♦ over 2♣ 4SF rather than having to bid over 2♦ could make a lot of difference in terms of space.

The small loss of 2♦ vs 2♣ is made up with savings on INV Hands.

[Cyberyeti]

 steve2005, on 2015-November-25, 21:31, said:

The small loss of 2♦ vs 2♣ is made up with savings on INV Hands.

Only if you play 2♣ GF which I don't