[straube]

I've been looking at IMPrecision's use of 1C-2H and 1C-2S wondering if I could squeeze anything more out of those bids. For example, I'd like to find a home for my GF single-suited club hands. So far I haven't found a solution.

But I noticed that currently...

1C-1S
.....2C-GF relay
..........2D-balanced hands
..........2H-4H/5D
..........2S-4C/5D +1
..........etc-6D

and

1C-2H is 3-suited short S

Now 1C-2H where the specific shortage is known is like -1 or so compared to standard symmetric. So how about switching?

1C-2H is 4H/5D

1C-1S
.....2C-GF relay
..........2D-balanced hands
..........2H-4C/5D
..........2S-3-suited short S
..........etc-6D

Using 1C-2H as 4H/5D means that you can't introduce 2S (to play). However...

1C-2H, 2S as relay or six spades then
.....2N-short spades
..........3D-to play
..........3S-to play
.....3C-2452
..........3S-to play
.....3D-3451
..........3S-to play
.....3H-2461
..........now you're in game unfortunately

and...

1C-1S
.....2S-5S/4m
..........2N-asking minor and you will always now find a fit
.....2N-5S/4H

Is the 2H swap a good one or not? I'm not sure. Right now 1C-1S, 1N-2C handles the weak 4H/5D hand nicely (intends to pass 2red)


I'd also be interested in finding a tweak for 1C-2S (3-suited short club) because then...
.....2N-to play
.....3C-relay

is necessary but non-ideal in that 3C loses us a step here. Yeah, this is such a small point.

[awm]

The reason we have things as they are is that we are quite concerned about missing 5-3 major suit fits. The typical example here is 3451 opposite 5S (without 4H). This is potentially quite expensive if we have an auction like 1C-2H-3D-Pass or 1C-2H-2N-Pass and miss a good game in spades.

This doesn't really happen with the three-suiters (okay in principle responder can have 0544 and opener has 3H and we miss a fit, but this is less common and these hands are often non-trivial to bid in standard methods anyway).

[straube]

I'm concerned about that, too. Also the original way you've a chance for responder to raise a known 6-cd spade suit....1C-1S, 2D-2H, 2S-3S

Lots of tradeoffs here. Keeping things at +0 is not nothing and so often we wind up in game anyway. Plus at 2.5 times the frequency, we find our heart fits faster in comp.

I've looked at a paltry 20 hands (which is nothing) so I'll have to run some more. Thanks for replying

[straube]

I ran 100 hands and "missed" three 5-3 spade fits. I wasn't looking to see whether any of these would be found via extra strength by either hand. I seemed to miss more 6-2 spade fits and I think I would be more concerned about opener holding a minimum hand with 6 spades. He pretty much has to bid 3S directly or by breaking relay.

Let's say I played this. After 1C-2H, 2N how would one continue? If natural, then what would 3H mean? Perhaps 3C and 3S should be swapped.

3C-3S, at least invitational
3D-6D, to play
3H-?
3S-3C, forcing?

[straube]

Whether one plays 2H as 3-suited short spades or 4H/5+D, 1C-1S, 2D-2H, 2S allows a 6-1 part score. So we get to play 2S for only one use.

I ran another 100 hands and found that opener had 6+ spades 16 times. I think the more important issue after responder has shown a 2-suiter is picking up 6-? fits.

After 1C-2D (4+H/5+C) I think a 2S rebid needs to promise 6. If it promises 5 this caters to the rare 5-3 fits but responder can't raise with 2 and will remove the contract to 2N with 1 and thereby worsening the contract whenever opener actually does have 6....which ought to be roughly 16% of the time.

Looking at hands for 1C-2H meaning 4H/5+D I found more concerning (than loss of a 5-3 spade fit)...

1) getting too high. Stopping at 3D vs 2D or 3H vs 2H when the auction might have otherwise gone 1C-1S, 1N-2C, 2D or 2H
2) getting too high. Stopping at 2N vs 1N.
3) getting too high. Stopping at 3S vs 2S.
4) losing room to invite....such as 1C-1S, 1N-invite. Opener can have a difficult decision with 19 hcps.

But most of these deficits apply to 1C-2H showing 3-suited short spades.

Positives of the 4H/5+D use include

1) a +0 relay for the 5D/4C patterns
2) a more frequent use of the bid and its benefit in competition

The positives are harder to score but a lot of the point of semi-positives is preparation against a competitive auction.

[straube]

I'm thinking awm was right all along.

Currently we play...1C-1S, 1N-2C stayman and 2D to play....which handles weak 4H/5D and 6D nicely.
If 1S can be 1444, 0545 and 0445 these hands have no bid after 1C-1S, 1N. They can't Stayman and drop opener in 2D and they can't transfer to hearts since 2D is a sign off.
I'm also pretty annoyed with 1C-2H, 3S for 6S sign offs. And we do miss occasional 5-3 spade fits.
It's too bad, too, because the frequencies and relays are better with the switch.

[PrecisionL]

Interesting discussion. I think 1- and 2-suited hands should start with positive responses no higher than 2♣.

3-suited hands can be handled by 2♥ (5m440) and 2♠ (any 4441 hands).

Semi-solid or better 1-suiters can start at 2NT (1-under transfers). This scheme is my favorite Strong Club scheme after 20 years .

[straube]

1C-2H as 4S/5+H
.....2S-GF relay
1C-2S as 3-suited short spade
.....3C-GF relay
.....4C-to play (like 1% of hands)

possibly, but not necessarily....

1C-3C as 4540

Then...

1C-1H, 1S-2H is 3-suited short club

This means that we get the respective lengths of the majors right in or out of competition. For example...

1C-1H, 2C-2H would be defined as 5S/4+H nf

And we have less to sort out after...

1C-1H (3D) P P ?

We get more use out of 1C-2H and we're still +0 here. A downside is that we can't then get out in 2H as in 1C-1H, 1N-2D, 2H. An upside is we find hearts with 4-5-1-3 opposite 1-3-6-3 etc.

[awm]

You may be solving a problem that doesn't exist here; we don't have trouble finding our fits after 1♣-1♥-2♣. Responder can always bid:

2♦ = looking for 4♥; not necessarily GF if opener does not have 4♥
2♥ = 6+♠ (could be signing off in 2♠)
2♠ = 5+♥

We know that opener will not have three spades (bids 1♠ over 1♥) so we don't need to look for 5-3 fits in spades.

Even over 1♣-1♥-2♦ we will not have a problem locating 5-3 and 4-4 heart fits:

2♥ = 6♠ signoff, or 5+♠ in a good hand
2♠ = 4+♥
... 2NT = min no 3♥
... 3♣ = 3♥ (can still play 3♦ if no fit found here)

Further, we can rebid 1NT on off-shape hands like 14(35); the sequence 1♣-1♥-1NT shows 1-2 spades since 3♠ hands bid 1♠.

[straube]

Very interesting. But I'd like to know your opinion how this use would fit in with how we continue after 1c-1h. Partly for memory ease and partly to avoid playing 4-3 spade fits after 1c-1h we rebid 2m with exactly the same shapes as for 1c-1d. Our 1n rebid is balanced and we rebid 1s with 4h/5d hands. 1c-1h,1s-1n is bal or 5s332 or clubs.

[straube]

If we include the 45(40)s in 1C-2H, then....

1C-1H, 1N

.....2C-stayman
..........2D-no major
...............2H-weak 5/5
.....2D-to play