[lorserker]

Hi, I noticed that some world class pairs use a special answer to stayman which shows both majors - 2NT.
Could someone explain the merit of not just responding 2H, and how it outweighs not being able to use stayman on weak hands fishing for a 4-4 fit to improve the part score?

[phil_20686]

The merit is that 1n-2c-2h-2s can be used to show a slam try with 4 card heart support (and no shortage), or some other meaning, and is not needed to just check that opener is not 4-4. It also prevents the wrong siding of spade contracts when responder is e.g. 4243 and opener has 44(32).

[lorserker]

Thanks. Is this widely used at pairs too? On vugraph it's always imps

[lorserker]

im not sure i understand the wrongsiding of spades. a natural auction would go: 1N - 2C 2D - 2H - 3N - 4S, and the spades are rightsided.

[lorserker]

im not sure i understand the wrongsiding of spades. a natural auction would go: 1N - 2C 2D - 2H - 3N - 4S, and the spades are rightsided.

[mgoetze]

Do they really have world class pairs in France?

[steve2005]

The only real damage is when responder was using Garbage Stayman you will be signing off via transfer at 3-level but at least there is a fit.
Same with people who try to sign-off in a major with weak 4-4/5-4 in majors.
But I think 2N showing both majors makes for a cleaner auction and you may be able to relay after a 2H/2S response to see if a 5-card major.

[lorserker]

@mgoetze lol, where are you from?

[helene_t]

In the auction
1NT-2♣
2♥-3♦
3♠

it can be unclear if opener is showing four spades or if he is showing a diamond fit and a concentration of values in spades. But if you play that the 2♥ bid denied four spades you don't have that problem.

[mgoetze]

lorserker, on 2015-November-15, 14:13, said:

@mgoetze lol, where are you from?

Maybe if you look closely, you'll see it? Check the left-hand side of the screen....

[lorserker]

mgoetze, on 2015-November-15, 15:18, said:

Maybe if you look closely, you'll see it? Check the left-hand side of the screen....

haha, now i see that you are from Koln, Germany, and you are not browsing on a mobile device

[mgoetze]

lorserker, on 2015-November-15, 16:10, said:

haha, now i see that you are from Koln, Germany, and you are not browsing on a mobile device

No, it's funny, ProBoards actually seems to be better on mobile than on the desktop but Invision is just worse in every way.

Anyway, some Germans for whatever reason decided it would be a good reason to adopt French methods so the 2NT = both majors answer is not unknown to me, but I know for a fact that we have no world-class pairs here in Germany.

[lorserker]

@mgoetze i remember that i once played in koln at a club run by a polish guy (i think), but probably we haven't met because nobody was 30

[msjennifer]

A modified Stayman.Opener bids 2D which shows minimum of 1NT range and can have one major only.Opener bids 2H with both majors and with 15/ bad16 and bids 2 S with good 16/17 with both majors.The other bids by opener eg 2NT/3CDorS or 3NT show different distributions with a maximum hand..

[Kungsgeten]

If combined with puppet stayman (where 3C or sometimes 2NT asks for a five card major) the 2NT response allows for a choice of game bid when holding 5-3 in the majors. With a GF hand, bid Stayman and continue with Smolen if opener rebid 2D. If he rebids your 3 card suit, bid 3NT showing 3 card support and 5 cards in the other major.

Another upside is, if using four way transfers (2S transfers to clubs, 2NT transfers to diamonds, invitational hands without a major has to go via 2C), that 1NT-2C; 2H-2S can be invitational with 5 spades, while 2NT in this auction says nothing about spades. This allows for second round transfers by responder after a jacoby transfer, or similar.

If using a 2NT response as 4-4 majors I would recommend bidding 2NT with 4-4 minimum and 3C with 4-4 maximum. Over these responder transfers to the desired major at the 3-level.

[daffydoc]

I would not care for 2nt to show both majors and would not play it myself - as I have a distinct preference for garbage stayman. To my recollection I have not seen this treatment as yet at the nationals in the USA - perhaps it is more a foreign treatment? Am sure it has merits - but still don't think I would adopt it - particularly if it would mean adding even more to remember on follow-ups to a 2nt response. Particularly for anyone below world class level - learn to defend and play and stop adding conventions. daffydoc

[mgoetze]

daffydoc, on 2015-November-17, 14:47, said:

perhaps it is more a foreign treatment?

I wonder whether this question might have been answered already.

[cherdano]

phil_20686, on 2015-November-15, 11:46, said:

The merit is that 1n-2c-2h-2s can be used to show a slam try with 4 card heart support (and no shortage), or some other meaning, and is not needed to just check that opener is not 4-4. It also prevents the wrong siding of spade contracts when responder is e.g. 4243 and opener has 44(32).

I hope there are better arguments! Slam tries with a fit after 1N-2C-2H aren't really a problem, between 3S, 4C and 4D you have plenty of bids. And right-siding 4-4 fits when one hand has 9 hcp and the other 15-17 isn't exactly high priority either.

[PhantomSac]

helene_t, on 2015-November-15, 14:49, said:

In the auction
1NT-2♣
2♥-3♦
3♠

it can be unclear if opener is showing four spades or if he is showing a diamond fit and a concentration of values in spades. But if you play that the 2♥ bid denied four spades you don't have that problem.

Kind of off topic but even if opener can still have 4 spades in this auction it is much better to play 4 level= coming in spades and 3S=I like my hand for diamonds. The point being with a known 4-4 spade fit you can afford to go past 3N but a lot of time with a diamond fit you can't.

[jfnrl]

Playing SEF (and so stayman 4 responses), I think that its main minus are :
No garbage stayman and auction 1NT 2C 2K 2H is underloaded
To much information to opponents if the final contract is 3 or 4H

In my opinion, the main minus of stayman 3 responses is that slam auctions are more complicated.

Playing stayman 4 responses, if the auction begins :
1NT 2C
2H 3D

The responder may look for a stopper in C (plausible contracts are 3NT, 4M -fit 4-3, 5D); he may also show a strong hand with or without fit (plausible contracts 4H, 5D, slam in D/H).
It seems me very complicated if he must keep in mind that the opener may have 4S.