[Shugart23]

Partner and I play Precision and we use XYZ. I am trying to figure best way to bid when you, the Responder have 5+,5+ hands (any two suits) and any hand strength....Assuming no interference, this means it is circumstances where Partner Opens a) 1D with 11-15 HCP and you have both Majors or 1 Major and a Minor and or b) Partner opens 1H , you bid 1S and Partner rebids 1NT.

Are there some guiding principles that show 5+,5+ hands vs 5=4 hands ?...Is seems like Responder has various options depending upon strength including

a) bid the second suit directly b)show the second suit after 2C but could jump after 2C to it c) show the second suit after 2D game force bid d) show second suit with a jump e) show second suit after a 2NT relay to 3C f) jump to game in the second suit

Before I try and reinvent the wheel, has anyone already dealt with this ? It's a little more complicated than SA because the 1D bid is artificial.

Thanks, for any advice or suggestions

[straube]

The simplest scheme I've seen is...

2C-forces 2D to play, make an invitation or sign off in a minor
.....2D-forced
..........2N-GI with clubs
..........3C-sign off
2D-artificial GF (can be 5/5 or single-suited)
2N-natural invite
3L-GF showing a concentrated (good suits) 5/5 or a good single-suited hand interested in slam

Lots of threads here on other schemes....transfer XYZs etc.

[Kungsgeten]

With 5-5 we bid via 2C with invitational hands (bid second suit at 3-level) and bid via 2NT relay with slam interest. With GF we bid 2D and checkback for a major fit, if not found we bid the other suit if we think the other suit is an alternative to 3NT. In case of both majors you may also have a direct jump to 3H (after starting with 1S), not sure what this should mean. A direct jump to 3m for us is invitational with 4M and longer minor.

[Free]

I play the following (same as in natural btw) after 1X-1Y-1Z:
2♣ = puppet to 2♦ (to play 2♦ / most invites / GF 5Y332 COG)
2♦ = GF relay
2NT = puppet to 3♣ (to play 3♣ / GF 5-5)
...3♣ = obligated
......3any (lower than Y) = GF 5-5 natural
......3Y = GF 5Y-5♣
3m = INV 5-5
3♥ (Y=♠) = INV 5-5 M

This shows the difference easily between 5-4 and 5-5 for all invite or better hands.

[Kungsgeten]

 Free, on 2015-November-09, 02:24, said:

This shows the difference easily between 5-4 and 5-5 for all invite or better hands.

To me it seems a bit risky to introduce a 4 card suit at the 3-level when having an invitational hand. I would probably just rebid the five card major at the 2-level instead.

[straube]

 Kungsgeten, on 2015-November-09, 07:06, said:

To me it seems a bit risky to introduce a 4 card suit at the 3-level when having an invitational hand. I would probably just rebid the five card major at the 2-level instead.

He doesn't invite 4-cd suits at the 3-level.

1D-1S, 1N-2C, 2D-2H=5S/4H GI
1D-1S, 1N-3H=5S/5H GI

[Free]

 Kungsgeten, on 2015-November-09, 07:06, said:

To me it seems a bit risky to introduce a 4 card suit at the 3-level when having an invitational hand. I would probably just rebid the five card major at the 2-level instead.

Well yeah, obviously, where did I say that I invite with 3m immediately on a 5M-4m hand?? Btw, 2♣ followed by 3m shows an invite with 4M and 5+m...

But if we invite 2M and partner runs to 2NT, you might still bid 3m which is definitely not a 5 card suit.

[Shugart23]

 Free, on 2015-November-09, 10:35, said:

Well yeah, obviously, where did I say that I invite with 3m immediately on a 5M-4m hand?? Btw, 2♣ followed by 3m shows an invite with 4M and 5+m...

But if we invite 2M and partner runs to 2NT, you might still bid 3m which is definitely not a 5 card suit.

Thanks for everyone's comments....I am thinking the order of which suit responder names first also has implications.....if 5-5 in the black suits and Partner opens 1D.....what situation would compel you to name Spades first vs bidding 2C.... or same situation where you have both Majors and partner opens 1D...1D- 1H or 1D- 1S could this happen and if so, why ?

[awm]

Here's what Sam and I do, although it will probably not be all that useful to you:

1. We play 2♦ as GF relay. This handles most GF hands where we can't just blast a contract.
2. To invite, we usually bid 2♣...2M and don't bother to show a 5-card minor. With 5♠-4+♥ we bid 2♣...2♥. We can in principle bid 2♣...3♥ with 5-5, but we usually reserve this for 6-5. We don't rebid 1NT with four spades, so with 5♥-4♠ we just bid 2♣...2♥.
3. With weak hands, our rebid of 2M over 1NT (i.e. 1♦-1♥-1NT-2♥) shows 5M and a 4+ side suit, because we would make a direct jump shift on less than invitational hands with 6M, and we normally pass a 1NT rebid with 5332. This lets opener correct on some hands.

Our other sequences are normally used to show three-suited hands so opener can evaluate his holding opposite shortage. These include:

1♦-1♥-1NT-2♠ = three-suited short clubs, invitational
1♦-1♥-1NT-2♣-2♦-2NT = three-suited short spades, invitational
1♦-1♥-1NT-2♣-2♦-2♠ = three-suited short diamonds, invitational
1♦-1♠-1NT-2♣-2♦-2NT = three-suited short hearts, invitational
1♦-1M-1NT-3♦, 3♥, 3♠ = GF with high/mid/low shortage respectively
1♦-1M-1NT-3♣ = to play, usually 4-6
1♦-1M-1NT-2NT = INV, normally 4M only and no shortage

[Free]

 Shugart23, on 2015-November-09, 15:30, said:

Thanks for everyone's comments....I am thinking the order of which suit responder names first also has implications.....if 5-5 in the black suits and Partner opens 1D.....what situation would compel you to name Spades first vs bidding 2C.... or same situation where you have both Majors and partner opens 1D...1D- 1H or 1D- 1S could this happen and if so, why ?

With 5M-5m there's absolutely no reason to ever start with the minor imo. Bridge is a Majors game (or NT), so try to find your Major fit first and look for other stuff later.

With a GF 6m-4M we start 1♦-2m. With less than GF values, or only 5m-4M we start with 1♦-1M. That's a matter of preference and style though, but for us, the reason is to have a bit more space for other hands after 1♦-2m and we hope we'll be able to handle the 4M-5m hands after 1♦-1M.

With both Majors we respond like in standard. 1♥ with 4-4, 1♠ with 5-5, and longest M when they're not equal in length. No reason to deviate from this either imo.

On a side note, with 5♠ and 4-5♥ we play Reversed Flannery responses (1♦-2♥ with less than INV, 1♦-2♠ with INV). As a result, 1♦-1♠-1NT(-2♣-2♦)-2♥ shows a weak (INV) 6♠-4♥. This has helped us bid some very sharp games in the past!

[Shugart23]

 Free, on 2015-November-10, 04:20, said:

With 5M-5m there's absolutely no reason to ever start with the minor imo. Bridge is a Majors game (or NT), so try to find your Major fit first and look for other stuff later.

With a GF 6m-4M we start 1♦-2m. With less than GF values, or only 5m-4M we start with 1♦-1M. That's a matter of preference and style though, but for us, the reason is to have a bit more space for other hands after 1♦-2m and we hope we'll be able to handle the 4M-5m hands after 1♦-1M.

With both Majors we respond like in standard. 1♥ with 4-4, 1♠ with 5-5, and longest M when they're not equal in length. No reason to deviate from this either imo.

On a side note, with 5♠ and 4-5♥ we play Reversed Flannery responses (1♦-2♥ with less than INV, 1♦-2♠ with INV). As a result, 1♦-1♠-1NT(-2♣-2♦)-2♥ shows a weak (INV) 6♠-4♥. This has helped us bid some very sharp games in the past!

I have to think on your side note....we currently use the jump to 2H or 2S as a preemptive bid over 1D...I wonder whose style has greater utilization of these Major jumps...I do like your idea, but wonder on our relative frequencies

[steve2005]

 Shugart23, on 2015-November-11, 07:33, said:

I have to think on your side note....we currently use the jump to 2H or 2S as a preemptive bid over 1D...I wonder whose style has greater utilization of these Major jumps...I do like your idea, but wonder on our relative frequencies

Depends on how wide a range of preempt your using if your using 0-7 and some bad 8/9 you can use following as INV. Precision can get away with a pretty wide range jump shift.
This allows 1♦-1M-1N-2M to be INV with 6M

[Free]

 Shugart23, on 2015-November-11, 07:33, said:

I have to think on your side note....we currently use the jump to 2H or 2S as a preemptive bid over 1D...I wonder whose style has greater utilization of these Major jumps...I do like your idea, but wonder on our relative frequencies

These bids have multiple purposes:
- It solves issues when opener has a 1=4=4=4, 1=4=3=5, 1=4=5=3, 0=4=4=5 or 0=4=5=4 distribution, because the auction would start 1♦-1♠-2♣ and you might miss your 4-4 ♥ fit. With GF hands you don't have a problem figuring out the 4-4 ♥ fit, but with weaker hands you can no longer figure this out. By showing 5♠-4♥ immediately, you avoid the problem before it occurs.
- After 1♦-1♠-2♦ you can use 2♥ as an artificial (or semi natural) forcing call which keeps the auction low. Much easier to find out if there's a 5-3 ♠ fit or some other fit in a minor. (we never raise 1♦-1♠-2♠ on a 3 card suit, because responder can have a 3 card ♠)
- An extra bonus is the easy possibility to show weak or invitational 6♠-4♥ after 1♦-1♠-1NT.

So it's not just the frequency that's important, you have to look at the whole picture. After 1♦-2M you might be better positioned than I am, but in other auctions I'm much more comfortable than you are because we didn't respond 2M.

There's good use for weak jump shifts as well. For example, we play 1♥-2♠ as a weak jump shift for similar reasons as stated in the 2nd point: 1♥-1♠-2♥-2♠ is now an artifical forcing call which keeps the auction low. You could play something similar after 1♦ openings with weak jump shifts.

[straube]

 Free, on 2015-November-11, 17:07, said:

- An extra bonus is the easy possibility to show weak or invitational 6♠-4♥ after 1♦-1♠-1NT.

This is too specific/rare and too low (2H) to be right. You are better placed after 1D-1S, 1N-2C, 2H than after 1D-2S.

I think 1D-2H as reverse Flannery and 1D-2S as weak is right. 1D-2S as weak seldom bypasses a heart fit at the 2-level (true it can with a 6S/4H hand) whereas 1D-2S as GI 5S/4+H frequently does. After 1D-1S, 1N you have an easy XYZ auction that lets you stop in 2H. Basically 1D-2H as weak 5S/4+H and 1D-2S as weak 6S removes the two weak hand types that would ordinarily respond 1S and rebid 2M and this takes a lot of pressure off of 1S-responding auctions.

[Free]

 straube, on 2015-November-11, 20:50, said:

I think 1D-2H as reverse Flannery and 1D-2S as weak is right. 1D-2S as weak seldom bypasses a heart fit at the 2-level (true it can with a 6S/4H hand) whereas 1D-2S as GI 5S/4+H frequently does. After 1D-1S, 1N you have an easy XYZ auction that lets you stop in 2H. Basically 1D-2H as weak 5S/4+H and 1D-2S as weak 6S removes the two weak hand types that would ordinarily respond 1S and rebid 2M and this takes a lot of pressure off of 1S-responding auctions.

That's definitely a good alternative