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Not a sport

#1 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 03:51

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34537024
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

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#2 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 03:57

This highlights a big cultural difference with many European countries where it is quite obvious that bridge, go, draughts (or checkers) and chess are sports. And there e.g. hunting is not considered a sport.

Rik
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#3 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 03:58

I guess now the battle has to shift to changing the law so that mind sports receive exemption from VAT and the other advantages at accrue to "sports". A lot harder to do :(
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#4 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 06:07

View PostVampyr, on 2015-October-15, 03:58, said:

A lot harder to do

Possibly, possibly not.

It is in one sense very hard, because they have already tried once and failed, and each appeal to a higher court adds to the difficulty as a borderline decision would tend to align with the lower court's findings.

But the VAT treatment in other EU countries is (or should be) a compelling argument in the VAT treatment in the UK, which point may not have had any relevance to the case just heard.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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#5 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 06:22

I have always maintained that bridge is not a sport, in the normal sense of the word as used in common English.

However, that by itself, does not render it unworthy of special treatment such as tax exemptions. I don't know much about British tax law. But I see no reason that bridge should not qualify for an exemption that physical sports get - even though it is not a sport.
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#6 User is offline   mamos 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 08:08

My understanding is that the judge has not ruled one way or another whether bridge is a sport. He has simply ruled that Sport England could make the decision that bridge did no qualify as a sport for their purposes.

Quote from BBC report

"The issue he had considered was whether Sport England officials had "erred in law" when refusing to classify bridge as a sport, the judge said - not the "broad, somewhat philosophical question" as to whether or not bridge is a sport."

Sport England continue to maintain that their job is to promote physical well-being. Pretty sad I think.

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#7 User is offline   el mister 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 08:09

View Postbillw55, on 2015-October-15, 06:22, said:

I have always maintained that bridge is not a sport, in the normal sense of the word as used in common English.

However, that by itself, does not render it unworthy of special treatment such as tax exemptions. I don't know much about British tax law. But I see no reason that bridge should not qualify for an exemption that physical sports get - even though it is not a sport.

Sport England (the administrative body for sports funding) had let a few soft ones through such as darts and snooker, so probably felt they needed to draw a line in the sand. Otherwise you'll end up with dungeons and dragons players asking for VAT relief.

It's a shame the game is being held up to (mild) ridicule in the UK with this decision, as obv no one thinks bridge is a sport. But it is clearly (IMHO) deserving of the financial support that sports get in the shape of tax relief etc., so maybe a way forward can be found for mind sports to be given separate treatment.
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#8 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 08:29

I am curious about this VAT, how it works, and how it applies to organized bridge. What exactly is being taxed? Revenue? Profit? Property?
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#9 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 08:30

View PostTrinidad, on 2015-October-15, 03:57, said:

This highlights a big cultural difference with many European countries where it is quite obvious that bridge, go, draughts (or checkers) and chess are sports. And there e.g. hunting is not considered a sport.

Rik


Charles De Gaulle was right ;-)

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#10 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 08:57

View Postel mister, on 2015-October-15, 08:09, said:

Sport England (the administrative body for sports funding) had let a few soft ones through such as darts and snooker, so probably felt they needed to draw a line in the sand. Otherwise you'll end up with dungeons and dragons players asking for VAT relief.

Sport England has nothing to do with VAT relief.
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#11 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 08:59

View Postbillw55, on 2015-October-15, 08:29, said:

I am curious about this VAT, how it works, and how it applies to organized bridge. What exactly is being taxed? Revenue? Profit? Property?

VAT, essentially the same as sales tax in the USA, is currently charged on entry fees at a rate of 20%.
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#12 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 10:14

View Postpaulg, on 2015-October-15, 08:59, said:

VAT, essentially the same as sales tax in the USA, is currently charged on entry fees at a rate of 20%.

Aha, ok. So a $10 entry becomes a $12 entry, with the government collecting the extra $2. And this applies to club games I suppose? Or just tournaments?

I agree it seems a nuisance.



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#13 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 10:24

View Postbillw55, on 2015-October-15, 10:14, said:

Aha, ok. So a $10 entry becomes a $12 entry, with the government collecting the extra $2. And this applies to club games I suppose? Or just tournaments?

I agree it seems a nuisance.

It does not apply to smaller club games since there is an annual turnover threshold below which the selling organisation (ie the club) does not need to account for VAT. But it certainly applies to national tournaments.
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#14 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 11:49

View Postbillw55, on 2015-October-15, 10:14, said:

Aha, ok. So a $10 entry becomes a $12 entry, with the government collecting the extra $2. And this applies to club games I suppose? Or just tournaments?

I agree it seems a nuisance.


It's not just a nuisance - 20% to the government on all goods and services is daylight robbery.
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#15 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 12:18

View PostVampyr, on 2015-October-15, 11:49, said:

It's not just a nuisance - 20% to the government on all goods and services is daylight robbery.

I suppose one could see it that way. But things must be paid for. Is your government running a surplus? If not, which services/spending would you cut in order to reduce the VAT? Or would you raise some other tax to compensate? Perhaps increase borrowing? Just wondering.
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#16 User is offline   WGF_Flame 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 12:24

I think what the court said is not that bridge isnt sport, but that given the enlish union definition of sport, bridge is not a sport.
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#17 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 12:49

View Postbillw55, on 2015-October-15, 06:22, said:

I have always maintained that bridge is not a sport, in the normal sense of the word as used in common English.

However, that by itself, does not render it unworthy of special treatment such as tax exemptions. I don't know much about British tax law. But I see no reason that bridge should not qualify for an exemption that physical sports get - even though it is not a sport.


Sums up my thoughts exactly.
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#18 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 16:22

View Postbillw55, on 2015-October-15, 12:18, said:

I suppose one could see it that way. But things must be paid for. Is your government running a surplus? If not, which services/spending would you cut in order to reduce the VAT? Or would you raise some other tax to compensate? Perhaps increase borrowing? Just wondering.


I would be less generous with welfare. You can stay on the dole forever if you choose not to work, and receive housing benefit on top of that.


I'm not saying that you get loads of money, but it is enough to live on, and a lot of people choose this life.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#19 User is offline   StevenG 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 16:25

View PostVampyr, on 2015-October-15, 16:22, said:

I would be less generous with welfare. You can stay on the dole forever if you choose not to work, and receive housing benefit on top of that.

I'm not saying that you get loads of money, but it is enough to live on, and a lot of people choose this life.

Since we don't have systemic full employment, people do not, in general, choose this life.
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#20 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-October-15, 16:36

View PostStevenG, on 2015-October-15, 16:25, said:

Since we don't have systemic full employment, people do not, in general, choose this life.


Some do not choose it, but many do.
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