[Kungsgeten]

Has anyone tried something like below? The idea is to get sort of a mini-NT into an aggressive natural system, without actually playing a mini-NT.

1C = Natural 11+ or strong NT, may have 5M332
1D = Natural 11+ unbal
1M = Natural 5+M 11+ or 8-11 (semi)bal with 4-5M
1NT = 12-14
2C+ = Your preference, probably 2C strong

I think the major opening could work fine in an uncontested auction, but it may be to difficult to handle when both sides bid. What's your opinion?

[mgoetze]

I don't see why you would include a balanced 8 but not an unbalanced 8 in 1M. The unbalanced 8 should be safer to open than the balanced 8.

The first constructive problem I see is that you are basically forcing opener to bid with any balanced 15 after 1M-1NT. The second, and perhaps more important, is what you do after a 2/1. Surely you don't want to bid 1♠-2♦-2NT on 8 points. So it looks like you are rebidding 2M with 8-11, potentially only 4 hearts. Now what does responder do with a minimum 2/1 and shortness in hearts?

In competition, the need to show 15 balanced is going to be really bad. 1♥-(2♠)-p-(p) and now you have 15 rather than 8, don't you kind of have to double? But double could be completely unsafe (advancer can find plenty of redoubles) AND it doesn't say anything about shape.

I'm not really convinced.

[helene_t]

When I read the book about the Scanian Major Suit Raises I thought I might like to modify it a bid:

1♣: natural or 16+ bal
1♦: natural
1M: (10)11-12 (semi)bal with 4+ M, or 5+
1NT: 13-15

But yes, I agree things like this would be ok in uncontested auctions. In contested auction you win when they interfere over your pretty well-defined minor suit openings, but you lose when they interfere over you majors.

It would take some time to get used to dealing with interference over a 4-card major opening (if you are used to playing 5cM) and I am not sure if it is worthwhile since the major suit openings would be five cards most of the time. Playing English Acol at least you know that opener will mostly be 15+ if the major is a 4-card suit so generally you can react over interference as if you played 5-card majors.

[Kungsgeten]

mgoetze: Opener will not have 15+ NT if opening 1M. Strong NT opens 1C which may have a five card major. Then you can choose to include 12-14 5M332 in 1M or to open these 1NT. Opening them 1NT would help the constructive auction a lot. The reason to include balanced 8-11 and not unbal would be to separate the two hand types (if 8-11 then bal, if 11+ then unbal). Constructive auctions would probably include a 1NT response which is forcing vs the unbalanced hand but the weak hand must pass. I'm not convinced either, but it might be fun

helene: The Swedish standard system uses a strong NT and four card majors, so I'm pretty used to this style. Sometimes you end up in a 4-3 fit in competition. Four card majors has a preemptive effect, so I do not quite get the idea of opening them if strong.

[nige1]

Kungsgeten, on 2015-October-14, 01:18, said:

Has anyone tried something like below? The idea is to get sort of a mini-NT into an aggressive natural system, without actually playing a mini-NT.

1C = Natural 11+ or strong NT, may have 5M332
1D = Natural 11+ unbal
1M = Natural 5+M 11+ or 8-11 (semi)bal with 4-5M
1NT = 12-14
2C+ = Your preference, probably 2C strong

I think the major opening could work fine in an uncontested auction, but it may be to difficult to handle when both sides bid. What's your opinion?

Similar to Jasmine

• 1♣ = ART. 16+
• 1♦ = ART. 8-15. Rule of 18+. 4+ ♣s or 4+ ♦s.
• 1♥ = NAT 8-15. Rule of 18+. 4+ ♥s.
• 1♠ = NAT 8-15. Rule of 18+. 4+ ♠s.
• 1N = BAL. 13-15
• 2♣ = NAT. 8-12. 4+ ♣s & 4+ ♦s.
• 2♦ = ART 5-9. 5-6 ♥s or 5-6 ♠s.
• 2♥ = NAT 8-12. Rule of 18. 4+ ♥s & longer or stronger m.
• 2♠ = NAT 8-12. Rule of 18. 4+ ♠s & longer or stronger m.
• 2N = ART. 5-9. 5+ ♥s & 5+ other.

[kenrexford]

I played a Kamikaze 1D opening with a few people for several years with success. Normal approach, generally, but 1D opening could be 8 to 10 balanced. We took some heat off the problem with an intermediate 2D opening as both minors, which for complicated reasons helped.

Similarly, in my canape system (MICS), 1M openings are 11 to 15 unbalanced, or 11 to 12 balanced, which is also very similar.

Both worked well. The bid works best if the non light options are always strong or unbalanced. Again, complicated as to why, but it is very effective.

So, the general feel of what you propose seems sound.

[kenrexford]

Oh, and I find it amusing that the 1C opening could have a 5 card major if balanced. I also found that to be "right" quite often in the Kamikaze 1D system (Ferex). I even expanded that concept into a 2/1 structure with a friend of mine where we used an unbalanced 1D opening, intermediate 2D for the minors. In that structure, 1C could be 5M332 because a 2NT rebid after a major opening was artificial, but 1C was a strong 5M332 if it came up. We had options. But, the idea of the 1C 5M332 was ubiquitous in its manifestations.

[Zelandakh]

As someone with experience of treating all 5M332s as balanced (opened 1♣ or 1NT). I do not think this is really positive thing, probably a very slight negative. The advantage comes from having these hands removed from the 1M openings - knowing they are unbalanced is certainly a plus. Here, not only is this key advantage not present but the hand type included has the opposite effect. Perhaps I am missing something but it looks to me that this structure is poor from a homogeneity point of view but without making the different hand types different enough nor with enough "second bid" hand types to clarify things. I would want to see how the system plays in practice before writing it off but in general I see a lot more negatives than positives here.

[Kungsgeten]

The negative are obviously the wide range of the opening bid in a competetive auction. The positive is to open more hands with a some what preemptive 1M. It is not necessary to play 1M as 8--11 NT 4+M or 11+ unbal 5+M. Here's a more typical US 2/1 type structure:

1m = 3+ suit, normal strength
1M = 5+ suit, normal strength or 4+ suit semi-bal 8--11
1NT = 15-17
2C = Strong
2DHS = Weak
2NT = 20-21

1M--1NT is a "forcing NT" in 2/1 spirit: Could be up to a minimal GF, may be a limit raise of the major. Weak opener pass.
1M--2X could be GF, but that would require a lot of strength so perhaps GF vs normal opener is better. Having artifical 1M-2X is probably best.
1M--2M normal raise, only promises 3 cards.
1H--2S WJS?
1M--2NT GF raise vs normal hand, but can stop in 3M vs 8--11.
1M--3m invitational vs normal opening hand.
1M--3M limit raise vs 4 card support.

[straube]

I think the negative is that you are trying to describe a lot more hands that have little trick-taking capability. It's great to take up space from and find fits faster than your opponents, but if you bid with too little reason you wind up hurting your own auction. Or put it another way...what advantages do your continuations have that leads you to think you can handle all these extra hands that most other systems decline to open?

[kupi007]

I dont think its playable in natural system, if you like to open on crap, then SSO (literally in polish System of Weak Openings) is your way. It was long time banned to use outside Poland, and hardly its palyed even in Poland now, but i see this as only alternative to open mini constructive hands.

[WesleyC]

I think this idea is directly worse than a mosquito style opening system (where 1C = H, 1D = S).

Using this method you get much more room to relay, and can actually sort out the weird shapes if partner is strong.

And if you don't have a 4cM why not preempt the opponents by opening 1M+.

[nullve]

Some ideas:


1M = "8-10", 4-5 M, (semi)bal. / "10-21", 5+ M, unbal.


1M-?:

1♠ = 4+ S
1N = "5-14(15)", 3- M. Also 3- S if M=♥. To play opposite "8-10" (semi)bal.
(...)
2M = "4" M, PRE opposite "8-10" (semi)bal., F1 opposite unbal. hands (idea: Law protection)
2♠(M=♥) = WJS [not sure about the exact range, but < inv values]
3M = "5" M, PRE opposite "8-10" (semi)bal, GF opposite unbal. hands (idea: Law protection)
(...)


1♥-1♠; ?:

1N = "8-10" (semi)bal., 3- S
2♣ = "10-18", 6+ H or 4+S5+H ("10-12", 3S5H4+m possible?) / "16-18", 2-S5H4+D [2♣ is partly a two-under transfer to hearts]
...2♦ = relay, GF opposite "13+"
.......2♥ = "10-12", 3-S6+H
..........2N = GF relay
.......2♠ = "10-12", 4+S5+H (or 3S5H4+m?)
..........2N = GF relay (?)
.......2N = "13-15", 6+ H or 4+S5+H
..........3♣ = relay
.............3♦-3♠ = M2
.............3N = 4522
.............4m = 4+S5+H, SPL m
.............(...)
.......3♣ = "16-18", 2-S5H4+D
..........3♦ = relay
.............3♥+ = part of M1
.......3♦-3♠ = "16-18", M2
.......3N = "16-18", 4522
.......4m = "16-18", 4+S5+H, SPL m
.......(...)
...2♥ = to play opposite "10-15", 3-S6+H
......P = "10-15", 3-S6+H
......2♠ = "10-12", 4+S5+H (or 3S5H4+m?)
......2N = 16-18, 5H4D
......3♣ = "15-17", 6+H4+m / "16-18", 4+S5+H"
.........3♦ = GF relay
............3♥/♠ = part of M2
............3N = 4522
............4m = 4+S5+H, SPL m
.........3♥ = to play opposite 6H4m
......3♦ = 15-17, 5H5D
......3♥ = "16-18", 2-S6+H
......3♠ = "13-15", 4+ S
......(...)
2♦ = "10-12 or 19-21", 5H4+m / "16-18", 3S5H4+m [2♦ is Muiderberg-like]
...2♥ = to play opposite "10-12"
......2♠ = "16-18", 3S5H4+m
...2♠ = (5)6+ S, NF
...2N = GF relay
......3♣+ = M1
...3♣ = pref. opposite "10-12"
......(...)
......3♥ = "16-18", 3S5H4+C, NF
......3♠ = "16-18", 3S5H4+D, NF
2♥ = "13-15", 5H4+m [2♥ is Muiderberg-like]
...P = 2-3 H, < GF values
...2♠ = 5S1-H, scrambling [didn't respond 2♠(WJS) to 1♥]
......P = 2-3 S
...2N = GF relay
......3♣+ = M1
...3♣ = P/C, < 5 S
2♠ = "8-10" semibal., 4 S
...2N = GF relay
2N = 16-18, 2-S5H4C
...3♣/3♥ = to play
...3♦ = GF relay
......3♥+ = part of M1
3♣ = 15-17, 2-S5H5C
3♦-3♠ = "19-21", M2
3N = 19-21, 4522
4m = "19-21", 4+S5+H, SPL m
(...)


1♥-1N; ?:

P = "8-10" (semi)bal.
2♣ = "10-18", 6+ H / 16-18, 5H4+D or 4+S5+H [2♣ is partly a two-under transfer to hearts]
...2♦ = relay, GF opposite "13+"
.......2♥ = "10-12", 6+ H
..........2N = GF relay
.......2♠ = "16-18", 4+S5+H
..........2N = GF relay
.............3♣+ = M3
.......2N = "13-15", 6+ H
..........3♣ = relay
.............3♦-3♠ = M2
.............3N = 4S6H
.............4♣ = 4S7H
.............4♦ = 5S6H
.............(...)
.......3♣ = "16-18", 5H4+D
..........3♦ = relay
.............3♥+ = part of M1
.......3♦-3♠ = "16-18", M2
...2♥ = to play opposite "10-15", 6 H
......P = "10-15", 6+ H
......2♠ = "16-18", 4+S5+H
.........2N = GF relay
......2N = 16-18, 5H4D
......3♣ = "15-17", 6+H4+m
.........3♦ = GF relay
............3♥/♠ = part of M2
.........3♥ = to play opposite 6H4m
......3♦ = 15-17, 5H5D
......3♥+ = "16-18", 6+ H, one-suited
2♦ = "10-12", 4S5H / "10-12 or 19-21", 5H4+m [2♦ is Lucas-like]
...2♥ = to play opposite "10-12"
...2♠ = P/C opposite "10-12"
...2N = GF relay
......3♣+ = M1
2♥ = "13-15", 5H4+m or 4S5H [2♥ is Lucas-like]
...P = 2-3 H, < GF values
...2♠ = P/C
...2N = GF relay
......3♣+ = M1
2♠ = "19-21", 4+S5+H
...2N = GF relay
......3♣+ = M3
2N = 16-18, 5H4C
...3♣/H = to play
...3♦ = GF relay
......3♥+ = part of M1
3♣ = 15-17, 5H5C
3♦-3♠ = "19-21", M2


1♠-1N; ?:

P = "8-10" (semi)bal.
2♣ = 4+ H
...2♦ = relay, GF opposite "13+"
......2♥ = "10-12"
.........2N = GF relay
............3♣+ = M3
......2♠ = "13-15"
.........2N = GF relay
............3♣+ = M3
......2N+ = "16-18"
.........3♣ = relay
............3♦+ = part of M3
......3♣ = "16-21", 5413 (5404)
.........3♦ = range ask
............3♥ = "16-18"
............3♠ = "19-21"
......3♦+ = "19-21", part of M3
...(...)
2♦ = "10-18", 6+ S / 16-18, 5S4+D [2♦ is partly a two-under transfer to spades]
...2♥ = range ask, GF opposite "13+"
......2♠ = "10-12"
.........2N = GF relay
......2N = "13-15"
.........3♣ = relay
............3♦-3♠ = M2
......3♣ = 16-18, 5S4+D
.........3♦ = relay
............3♥+ = part of M1
......3♦-3♠ = 16-18", M2
...2♠ = to play opposite "10-15", 6 S
......P = "10-15"
......2N = 16-18, 5S4D
......3♣ = "15-17", 6+S4+m
.........3♦ = GF relay
............3♥/♠ = part of M2
.........3♠ = to play opposite 6S4m
......3♦ = 15-17, 5S5D
......3♥ = "16-18", 6S3H, one-suited
......3♠+ = "16-18", 6S2-H, one-suited
2♥ = "10-12 or 19-21", 5S4+m [2♥ is Muiderberg-like]
...2♠ = to play opposite "10-12"
...2N = GF relay
......3♣+ = M1
...3♣ = P/C opposite "10-12"
2♠ = "13-15", 5S4+m [2♠ is Muiderberg-like]
...P = 2-3 S, < GF values
...2N = GF relay
......3♣+ = M1
...3♣ = P/C
2N = 16-18, 5S4C
...3♣/S = to play
...3♦ = GF relay
......3♥+ = part of M1
3♣ = 15-17, 5S5C
3♦-3♠ = "19-21", M2


Modules:

M1:

1M-1N; 2[M-1]/M-2N; ?:

One idea is to play similar stuff whether 2M-1 is a Muiderberg- or Lucas-style rebid, so e.g.

3♣ = 4+ D
...3♦ = relay
......3♥ = 5M242 or 5M5D
.........3♠ = relay
............3N = 5M242, not 19-21 [haven't decided what to do with 19-21 yet]
............4♣+ = 5M5D. Relay structure?
......3♠ = 5M143 (0544)
......3N = 5M341, not 19-21
......4♣ = 5M341, 19-21
3♦(M=♥) = 4S5H
...3♥ = anti-SPL C / relay
......3♠ = 4513 (4504)
......3N = 4522
......4♣ = 4531
......4♦ = 4540
...3♠ = anti-SPL D
3♦(M=♠) = undefined!
3♥ = 5M224 or 5M5C
...3♠ = relay
......3N = 5M224
......4♣+ = 5M5C. Relay structure?
3♠ = 5M134 (5M044)
3N = 5M314, not 19-21
4♣ = 5M314, 19-21


M2:

1M-1♠/N; 2[M-2]-2[M-1]: 2N-3♣; ?: / 1M-1♠/N; 2[M-2]-2[M-1]: ?: / 1M-1♠/N; ?:

(...)
3♦ = one-suited
3♥ = 6+M4+C
3♠ = 6+M4+D


M3:

1♥-1N; 2♣-2♦; 2♠-2N; ?: / 1♥-1N; 2♠-2N; ?: / 1♠-1N; 2♣-2♦; 2♥/♠-2N; ?:

If M = opened major,

(...)
3♣ = 5M4OM13 (5M4OM04)
3♦ = 5M4OM31 (5M4OM40)
3M = 6+M4OM
3♥(M=♠) = 5+S5+H
3♠(M=♥) = 5S6+H
3N = 5M4OM22
(...)

----

Could something like this be playable, or is there a big flaw somewhere?

------------------
21 Oct: Hmm, the above doesn't look good even to me. I think i need to try:

1♥-1♠; ?:

1N = "8-10", (semi)bal., 2-3 S
2♣ = "10-12", 5+H4m / "10-18, 4+S5+H / "16-18", most (all?) shapes [Gazzilli-like]
2♦ = 6+ H [could be "10-15", as I know how to handle the "16-21" range by other means]
2♥ = "13-15", 5H4+m [Muiderberg-like]
2♠ = "8-10", (semi)bal, 4 S
2N+ = "19-21", relay structure


1♥-1N; ?:

P = "8-10", (semi)bal.
2♣ = "10-12", either 5+H4m or 4S5H / "16-18", most (all?) shapes [Gazzilli-like]
2♦ = 6+ H [could be "10-15", as I know how to handle the "16-21" range by other means]
2♥ = "13-15", either 5H4+m or 4S5H [Lucas-like]
2♠ = ?
2N+ = "19-21", relay structure


1♠-1N; ?:

P = "8-10", (semi)bal.
2♣ = "10-15", 4+ H / "16-18", most (all?) shapes [Gazzilli-like]
2♦ = "10-12", 5S4+m [Muiderberg-like]
2♥ = 6+ S [could be "10-15", as I know how to handle the "16-21" range by other means]
2♠ = "13-15", 5S4+m [Muiderberg-like]
2N+ = "19-21", relay structure

which in some ways is much closer to what I actually play in a 2/1 context.

This post has been edited by nullve: 2019-February-12, 12:36

[WGF_Flame]

I like the general idea, but i dont think the gain of opening bal 8 points is enough, so i think this trick can be part of different opening structure with stronger major opening bid (fantunes?) then then 1NT range can be something like 10-12.

[benlessard]

My experience and conclusion is exactly the same as Zelandakh.

Open 1NT with a 5M is a serious drawback that can be compensated if your 1M is always unbalanced. To add another balanced in S is just beurk for me.

We play 1NT 12-14 with 5M332 and its by far the weakest part of my system, but at least when we open 1M its never 5332 so we can relay easily.


Personally I think Kantar style is best for 15-17 1NT.

Rarely open 1NT with 5S.
Open 1NT mostly with 5H when its 16 pts. IE you are too strong to rebid 1NT but too weak to rebid 2NT.
1H-1S-1NT as 11-15 is annoying but not terrible especially if you play XYZ.