[straube]

Looking for ideas on how to relay 1N. This 1N includes all 5332s, 4432s, 4333s and 4441s. Trying for ease of memory, symmetry, and prevention of information leakage. I've seen a structure like the following that places the 4441s in with 2D (no major); 2D has more room but this also requires that a re-ask for that major. I've also thought that perhaps the 2D and 2H responses be switched. I don't really like that the 4441s resolve so high, but maybe oh well. Any comments, alternate structures or improvements?

2D-no major
.....2S-4m4m
.....2N-5C332
.....3C-4m333
.....etc-5D332

2H-4+H
.....2N-4S4H
..........3D-4423
..........3H-4432
..........3S-4414
..........3N-4441
.....3C-2434
.....3D-3424
.....3H-2443
.....3S-3442
.....3N-1444

2S-4S
.....3C-4234
.....3D-4324
.....3H-4243
.....3S-4342
.....3N-4144

2N-5H

3C-4M333

etc-5S

[Cascade]

 straube, on 2015-October-09, 11:53, said:

Looking for ideas on how to relay 1N. This 1N includes all 5332s, 4432s, 4333s and 4441s. Trying for ease of memory, symmetry, and prevention of information leakage. I've seen a structure like the following that places the 4441s in with 2D (no major); 2D has more room but this also requires that a re-ask for that major. I've also thought that perhaps the 2D and 2H responses be switched. I don't really like that the 4441s resolve so high, but maybe oh well. Any comments, alternate structures or improvements?

2D-no major
.....2S-4m4m
.....2N-5C332
.....3C-4m333
.....etc-5D332

2H-4+H
.....2N-4S4H
..........3D-4423
..........3H-4432
..........3S-4414
..........3N-4441
.....3C-2434
.....3D-3424
.....3H-2443
.....3S-3442
.....3N-1444

2S-4S
.....3C-4234
.....3D-4324
.....3H-4243
.....3S-4342
.....3N-4144

2N-5H

3C-4M333

etc-5S

How about:

2D - no major

... 2S clubs -> 3C HS; 3D MS; 3H LS; 3S 3334
... 2NT both minors -> 3D HS; 3H LS
... 3C HS 2353
... 3D MS 3253
... 3H LS 3352
... 3S 3343

2H - 4 hearts not any 4441 (not five hearts)

... 2NT 44M -> 3D HS; 3H LS
... 3C 4H4C -> 3H HS; 3S LS
... 3D 2=4=4=3 HS
... 3H 3=4=4=2 LS
... 3S 3433

2S - 4 spades not 4 hearts not any 4441 (not five spades)

... 3C 4S4C -> 3H HS; 3S LS
... 3D 4=2=4=3 HS
... 3H 4=3=4=2 LS
... 3S 4333

2NT - any 4441

... 3D SpS 1=4=4=4
... 3H HeS 4=1=4=4
... 3S DiS 4=4=1=4
... 3NT ClS 4=4=4=1

3C - five hearts

... 3H HS
... 3S MS
... 3NT LS

3D - five spades three hearts

... 3S HS 5323
... 3NT LS 5332

3H - 5=2=3=3

[straube]

I like it very much. Thanks Wayne.

[hrothgar]

2D = 4+ Hearts

2H = 4+ Spades

2S = 4333 or 4441

2N = 4 Diamonds, (3=3=4=3 or and 5332)

2N = 44 in the minors

3C = 2=3=3=5

3D = 3=2=3=5

3H = 3=3=2=5

[straube]

Thank you. Is that Moscito? It seems like too much information is released there. For example, if I'm asking and just want to find a 4-4 major suit fit, I don't want to reveal pd has 3235 shape.

This one is just a tweak of Cascade's structure...

2D-no major
.....2S-clubs
.....2N-4m4m
.....3C-2353
.....3D-3253
.....3H-3352
.....3S-3343

2H-4+H
.....2N-4S4H
..........3D-4423
..........3H-4432
..........3S-4414
..........3N-4441
.....3C-4C
.....3D-2443
.....3H-3442
.....3S-3433


2S-4S
.....3C-4C
.....3D-4243
.....3H-4342
.....3S-4333

2N-5H

3C-4441 with short major

etc-5S

[olien]

For minimum information leakage, you might consider something like this:

1NT - 2♣:
2♦ - no 4M
2♥ - 4+♥, not 4333
2♠ - 4+♠, not 4333 and denies 4♥
2NT - (43)33

After 1NT - 2♣ // 2♦, can use 2♠ as GF Relay and keep 2♥ as garbage stayman (or whatever you prefer). Assume 2♠ GF Relay, but if not can shift these bids down 1 step:

2NT - 4+♣ (3♣ relay --> 3334 / 3325 / 3235/ 2335)
3♣ - 4/4 minors (3♦ relay --> LH doubleton)
3♦ - 3343
3♥ - 3352
3♠ - 3253
3NT - 2353

After 1NT - 2♣ // 2♥ - 2♠ (GF Relay):
2NT - 4♠-4♥ (3♣ Relay --> 3♦=44(32); 3♥=4441; 3♠=4414)
3♣ - 4♥-4♣ (3♦ relay --> 3♥=3424; 3♠=2434; 3NT=1444)
3♦ - (2)44(3)
3♥+ - 5♥

1NT - 2♣ // 2♠ - 2NT (GF Relay):
3♣ - 4♠-4♣ (3♦ relay --> 3♥=4324; 3♠=4234; 3NT=4144)
3♦ - 4243 or 4342
3♥+ - 5♠

1NT - 2♣ // 2NT should be pretty self explanatory. Could even do 2NT as min and 3♣ as max. This would allow responder to bid stayman with 4333 and nobody reveals major when both 4333.

[straube]

Thanks for posting. I should have specified, but this is GF relay Stayman so we have full use of the 3-level. Someone told me once that with four patterns (such as 4432, 4423, 4414, and 4441) that it's actually more efficient to give a step for each instead of grouping two of them (such as 4432 and 4423). Maybe you were trying not to leak that info? I think I would not want to group 4333s together because that leaks a lot immediately and most days asker won't also have 4333 and now has to ask again and give partner's complete shape.

[Kungsgeten]

I just toyed with a version which tries to make responder declarer in
a major suit contract, and tries not to reveal too much.

1N--2C;
2D = Any hand with 4 hearts
...2S = 4 hearts and 4 card minor
......3C = 4 clubs
......3D = 1-4-4-4
......3H = 2-4-4-3
......3S = 3-4-4-2
...2N = 4-4-2-3
...3C = 4-4-3-2
...3D = 4-4-1-4
...3H = 4-4-4-1
...3S = 3-4-3-3
2H = 4 spades, not 4 hearts
...2S = 4 clubs
...2N = 4-1-4-4
...3C = 4-2-4-3
...3D = 4-3-4-2
...3H = 4-3-3-3
2S = A five card minor
...3C = 5 diamonds
...3D+ = 5 clubs
2N = No 4+ major, no 5-card minor
...3D = 2-3-4-4
...3H = 3-2-4-4
...3S = 3-3-3-4
...3N = 3-3-4-3
3C+ = Cascade's structure (so 5 card major)

1N--2C;
2D = 4-4 with a major
...2S = 4 hearts
...2N = Both majors
......3D = 4-4-2-3
......3H = 4-4-3-2
......3S = 4-4-1-4
......3N = 4-4-4-1
...3C = 4!s, 4!c
...3D = 4-1-4-4
...3H = 4-2-4-3
...3S = 4-3-4-2
2H = A five card minor (as above but one step lower)
2S = 4+ hearts, no other suit
2N = No 4+ major, no 5-card minor
3C = 5-2-3-3
3D = 5-3-2-3
3H = 5-3-3-2
3S = 4-3-3-3

[yunling]

What about Romex-like stayman responses?

1NT-2♣-?
...2♦=no 4♥ or 5♠
......2♠=4♠&0-3♥
.........3♣=4♠4♣
.........3♦=4♠333
.........3♥+=4♠4♦
......2NT=4♦4♣
......3♣=5♣332
......3♦=4m333
......3♥+=5♦332
...2♥=4+♥&0-3♠
......2NT=5♥332
......3♣=4♥4♣
......3♦=4♥333
......3♥+=4♥4♦
...2♠=5♠332(3♣ as relay)
...2NT=4♠4♥

This allows stayman to be made on non-GF hands.

[straube]

 yunling, on 2015-October-22, 05:09, said:

What about Romex-like stayman responses?

1NT-2♣-?
...2♦=no 4♥ or 5♠
......2♠=4♠&0-3♥
.........3♣=4♠4♣
.........3♦=4♠333
.........3♥+=4♠4♦
......2NT=4♦4♣
......3♣=5♣332
......3♦=4m333
......3♥+=5♦332
...2♥=4+♥&0-3♠
......2NT=5♥332
......3♣=4♥4♣
......3♦=4♥333
......3♥+=4♥4♦
...2♠=5♠332(3♣ as relay)
...2NT=4♠4♥

This allows stayman to be made on non-GF hands.

Thanks for posting this. I've more recently been looking for a scheme that works for our 2N rebids (which are pretty much 4432, 4333, 5332 and 4441 shapes) and something like this would work pretty well opposite very strong or very weak hands. Probably the only downside for us would be losing 5M332 opposite very weak hands.

[straube]

Stealing from lots of people here (thanks). The idea is to have the same scheme for both our 1N and 2N which contain the same hand patterns. Any improvements here?

After 2N-3C

3D-4+H
.....3S-shows 4S
.....3H-either slam interest or 3 hearts
..........3S-other
...............3N-to play
...............4C-asks
....................4D-4C
....................4H-3433
....................4S-2443
....................4N-3442
....................5C-1444
..........3N-4S
...............4C-asks
....................4D-4423
....................4H-4432
....................4S-4414
....................4N-4441
..........4C-2533
...............4H-3H
..........4D-3523
...............4H-3H
..........4H-3532
3H-no major
.....3S-asking with slam interest
..........3N-5C
..........4C-4m4m
..........4D-4m333
..........etc-5D
3S-4S
.....3N-to play
.....4C-asking
..........4D-4C
..........4H-4333
..........4S-4243
..........4N-4342
..........5C-4144
3N-5S

Now for 1N-2C

2D-4H
.....2S-shows 4 spades
.....2H-asking
..........2S-other
...............2N-asking
....................3C-4C
....................3D-3433
....................3H-2443
....................3S-3442
....................3N-1444
..........2N-4S
...............3C-asking
....................3D-4423
....................3H-4432
....................3S-4414
....................3N-4441
..........3C-2533
..........3D-3523
..........3H-3532
2H-no major
.....2S-asking
..........2N-5C
..........3C-4m4m
..........3D-4m333
..........etc-5D
2S-4S
.....2N-asking
..........3C-4C
..........3D-4333
..........3H-4243
..........3S-4342
..........3N-4144
2N-5S