[Kungsgeten]

This sequence happened to us yesterday:

---

We haven't got many explicit agreements in these auctions when opener is strong and responder has passed. How would you play? Responder can have a hand which do not want to act if opener has 12-14 NT, so even if opener is minimum game is still possible. Responder may also be broke. Opener's alternatives would be bidding a suit (NF), bidding the opponent's suit (very strong), or making a jump shift (very strong but not game forcing).

Possible treatments, both by opener and responder, is appreciated.

[helene_t]

My first thought was transfer lebensohl with a direct transfer showing a 5-card invite or better while a delayed transfer shows two places to play. Not that I have any particular reason for not doing it the other way round

This would be the same defence as I would prefer to play against a first seat 2♦ opening, doubled in balancing seat.

But maybe a positive (7+ points) with both majors would have acted before?

[Kungsgeten]

helene_t, on 2015-October-06, 07:44, said:

But maybe a positive (7+ points) with both majors would have acted before?

I'd guess so. Doubling 2♦ with this kind of hand is a possibility. But ofcourse it may be awkward if holding something like 4-4-4-1 in case opener bids clubs. Perhaps opener shouldn't be allowed to bid clubs in this specific sequence though... Anyway transfer lebensohl seems pretty good. We play normal lebensohl vs weak twos though. What do you mean by a delayed transfer? Let's say instead that the opponent bid 1♠, what now? At this point I'm more into general agreements than specific sequences (taking it one step at a time).

[helene_t]

I am not sure if I would play lebensohl against a 1♠ overcall.

Suppose they bid 2♦/♥. You can make a direct transfer by bidding their suit or above at the 3-level. Or the same after 2NT. A bid at the 3-level under their suit is just a natural semipositive, not Lebensohl.

[Kungsgeten]

This is translated from another Swedish club system. Good enough or would you do some other way?

Quote

Club opener's free bid when responder has made a negative bid (pass or 1♦):

All of opener's bids are strong. Jump shifts are game forcing. Cue bids and jumps to 2NT shows 2-suited hands (cue bid shows highest unbid and another suit). NT at lowest level is natural. If fourth hand bids a suit, then bids in second hand's suit are natural. After 1♣-(pass)-1♦-(Dbl) Rdbl shows strength without a good natural bid. Double is take-out.

Lebensohl is used by responder if only one suit was bid by the opponents.

They seem to also play a variant of Lebensohl after a take-out double of 1X. Here 1NT is a negative, showing 0-6.

[Zelandakh]

helene_t, on 2015-October-06, 07:44, said:

But maybe a positive (7+ points) with both majors would have acted before?

Not only this but also most (Responder) hands with a 5 card major will have bid it. This is one of the key advantages of SC so if you do not account for it in sequences like this you are missing a trick.

[Kungsgeten]

Yes. Responder's options when second hand bids 2X is about the same as if opener had opened 1NT:

- A new suit at the two-level is to play vs weak NT, but GF vs 17+
- Double is take-out, GF vs 17+
- 2NT is Lebensohl, GF vs 17+
- 3-level and bidding via 2NT is INV/GF vs weak NT

So responder will bid with most 7/8+ hands with a 5+ suit in this situation. If second hand interferes below 1♠ we play transfers, and responder may also bid with a lot of 5-7 hcp hands, for instance:

1♣-(1♥)---
Pass = No desire to bid
Dbl = 4+ spades, 8+
1♠ = Semi-bal or both minors, 8+
1NT = 5+ clubs, 8+
2♣ = 5+ diamonds, 8+
2♦ = 5+ diamonds, 5--7
2♥ = Asking for stopper, GF
2♠ = 5+ spades, 5--7
2NT = Both minors, 5--7
3m = Preemptive with good suit, something like HHxxxxx
3♥ = 5+ spades and 5+ minor, 5--7 (probably a bad idea, but anyhow)

If second hand bid 1♠ responder uses negative free bids (8--11) and jump shifts are GF (double + new suit also GF). If second hand bids 1NT we play Asptro.

Would it make sense to play some kind of Herbert negative if opener doubles when responder has made a negative bid (pass/1♦)? I'm thinking that the double is somewhat similar to a "power double" in the Overcall structure or similar systems. Perhaps something like:

1C--(Something)--P--(P); Dbl--(P)---
Something + 1 = 0--4 (and perhaps some GF hands?). Opener usually bids Something + 2 as pass/correct, and then perhaps transfers can start at nearest NT bid?
Other = Natural, 5--7, not forcing
Cue and higher = GF

[mgoetze]

I'm having trouble with the premise that double shows 17+. Letting the opponents play 2♦ when you have an 8-card major fit and the majority of the points is not winning bridge.

[Kungsgeten]

mgoetze, on 2015-October-06, 20:23, said:

Letting the opponents play 2♦ when you have an 8-card major fit and the majority of the points is not winning bridge.

This will be rare, but sure it can happen. If opener hasn't got 17+ then he has 12--14 NT (in our current version of the system, Swedish Club usually includes 11--13 NT instead so then it is even less of a risk). So for us to have the majority of the points opener will have 12--14 NT and responder will have a hand with 7+ hcp which couldn't act vs this weak NT hand. If this is the case then opener would also require a hand that would have wanted to balance, playing a natural system.

Worst case scenario would be: Opener has 4-4-1-4 and 12-14 (we treat this pattern as balanced, since we do not play a Precision 2D opening). Responder has something like 2-4-4-3.

[mgoetze]

Kungsgeten, on 2015-October-06, 23:24, said:

This will be rare, but sure it can happen. If opener hasn't got 17+ then he has 12--14 NT (in our current version of the system, Swedish Club usually includes 11--13 NT instead so then it is even less of a risk). So for us to have the majority of the points opener will have 12--14 NT and responder will have a hand with 7+ hcp which couldn't act vs this weak NT hand. If this is the case then opener would also require a hand that would have wanted to balance, playing a natural system.

Worst case scenario would be: Opener has 4-4-1-4 and 12-14 (we treat this pattern as balanced, since we do not play a Precision 2D opening). Responder has something like 2-4-4-3.

I don't think this "worst case scenario" is as rare as you make it out to be. And even with 4=2=3=4 or 4=2=2=5 I can see responder having trouble coming up with a bid.

If opener really has 4=4=1=4 (he could just have a mundane 4=4=2=3 instead), there is even some chance that responder has a trap pass with a diamond stack...

It's even worse playing Polish rather than Swedish, of course, where opener could have a full 14, or a (34)15 too good to open 2♣...

And in my T-Walsh system I play 14-16 in 1st-3rd seat, but 15-17 in 4th, and I would recommend that for Swedish Club also, so in this particular position...

[straube]

I think double should promise your 17+ or your short diamond 4414 15+ hands.

[Kungsgeten]

straube, on 2015-October-07, 15:50, said:

I think double should promise your 17+ or your short diamond 4414 15+ hands.

With 4-4-1-4 and 15+ we open 1NT (15-17), 2D (18-19 NT) or 1C (20+ if balanced, 4441-pattern or primary diamonds. So if 17-19 then unbal with primary major/clubs).

[mgoetze]

Kungsgeten, on 2015-October-08, 09:54, said:

With 4-4-1-4 and 15+ we open 1NT (15-17), 2D (18-19 NT) or 1C (20+ if balanced, 4441-pattern or primary diamonds. So if 17-19 then unbal with primary major/clubs).

If 1♣ doesn't even include 17-19 balanced, the weak hand that wants to make the takeout double is even more common relatively speaking. Seriously, you should sim how often you have each of these hand types in this situation.

[straube]

mgoetze, on 2015-October-08, 15:24, said:

If 1♣ doesn't even include 17-19 balanced, the weak hand that wants to make the takeout double is even more common relatively speaking. Seriously, you should sim how often you have each of these hand types in this situation.

Yes. That 17-19 balanced are not included is a big clarification.

[Kungsgeten]

Excluding 17--19 NT from opener is more related to my specific system. I thought that the thread would be more interesting if discussing methods that are more common (Swedish/Polish club and variants).

Let's say that you are playing short club, perhaps the popular 5542 system where 1C is natural, weak balanced (11+--14) or strong balanced (18--19). Would you double with the weak balanced version when partner has passed? I guess you could if partner is trap passing, but how is partner supposed to act if he is not? Responder's bid will basically have something like 0--11? Or should you jump with 8--11 and hope that we're not too high (might work)? It just seems (to me) that a reopening double should show some extras in form of shape/strength and that 4-4-2-3 (in the OP sequence) isn't enough. If I were playing 5542, I would probably want the reopening double to show strong balanced or take-out with a real club suit, the downside ofcourse being trap pass. Is the rationale behind the reopening minimum double that if partner is weak and I am weak, the opponents would not have stopped in 2D?

[Kungsgeten]

Here's what we settled for, when opener has made a take-out (17+) double and responder is weak (negative 1D or pass):

At the one-level, we use Herbert negatives. We also use Herbert negatives if the bidding is at 2C or 3C. Not bidding Herbert is somewhat positive, about (4)5-7. With a GF responder jumps or cue bids.

At the two-level responder uses Lebensohl.

At the three-level and above we have to guess.

If they interfere with 1NT opener's double suggests penalties. Responder usually passes but may bid 2C Stayman or 2X as to play.

Except usual take-out shape opener can also double with a 4 card major and a 5+ minor.