[Jinksy]

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Who's to blame? Is the decision close for either or both?

[Cyberyeti]

I would have automatically bid 4♥ over 2N, presumably this means something else by your methods, but it follows that I should thus bid 4♥ over 3♥.

[SteveMoe]

West should bid 4♥ over 3♣.

(You might want to check the possible responses to this poll - West cannot possibly bid again over 3♥ because West bid 3♥).

[rmnka447]

West should bid 4 ♥ over 3 ♣.

West knows there is at least a 10 card ♥ fit. West's hand is 12 HCP with 2 QTs and all values are working with each other. Even if East's opener is a flat hand, West cards are sure to be useful. They'll limit the partnership's losers in every side suit.

From a LTC point of view, this is a 7 loser hand before any bid was made. But once ♥ are bid, the 3 losers in the ♥ suit become drop to 2 losers at most and very like no more than 1 loser. That makes the loser count too low to simply make a limit raise against a normal 7 loser opener. Had West's hand been an 8 loser hand and remained an 8 loser hand after opener's rebid, then showing the limit raise hand would have been appropriate.

Also, IMO, West's hand is an opener even in 1st or 2nd seat. It is an aggressive opener to be sure, but still an opener. An opener opposite an opener is worth a game bid.

[wank]

this is a very difficult hand.

one has to choose who underbid more. personally i'd go for west, but it's a close run decision. east certainly doesn't escape remedial lessons on bridge scoring and game bonuses.

[neilkaz]

Both sides underbid, but west really has to insist on game. Blame 75% West 25% East.

West has an opening 1H bid and has heard his pard open 1H so he has to bid game.

[mike777]

hmm I think some posters have lost their mind
We are told 3c= any minimum
opener has a minimum, opener has crap
west bidding seems insane....
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I edit for my spaces

[Stephen Tu]

I think both clearly underbid.

I ran some double dummy computer sims. West hand vs. 5332 12-13 count (typical hand to pass 3h) = 70% to make. East hand vs. balanced 10-11 count 4 cd support = 55% to make. So West underbid by "more".

[mike777]

Stephen Tu, on 2015-October-02, 23:20, said:

I think both clearly underbid.

I ran some double dummy computer sims. West hand vs. 5332 12-13 count (typical hand to pass 3h) = 70% to make. East hand vs. balanced 10-11 count 4 cd support = 55% to make. So West underbid by "more".

I hope that was my point.

Granted I have no idea vs cx sims

[kuhchung]

I always just bid game with 10 trumps and prime cards, so E I guess.

[Zelandakh]

Stephen Tu, on 2015-October-02, 23:20, said:

I think both clearly underbid.

I ran some double dummy computer sims. West hand vs. 5332 12-13 count (typical hand to pass 3h) = 70% to make. East hand vs. balanced 10-11 count 4 cd support = 55% to make. So West underbid by "more".

I suspect "who under bid more" has more to do with opening bid style than your sim gives credit for. The lighter the openings, the more the West hand looks like a limit raise rather than a GF and the more the East hand has in extras.

[jogs]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-October-02, 18:48, said:

I would have automatically bid 4♥ over 2N, presumably this means something else by your methods, but it follows that I should thus bid 4♥ over 3♥.

Bid 4♥. East is 3=6=2=2. 3=5=2=3 would be a true minimum.

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4♥ may still make.

[Zelandakh]

If you are going to give a minimum, how about ♠QJx ♥AKQxx ♦xx ♣Jxx? Or we could discuss 6322 hands by changing a small club to a small heart. We could also play with the West hand if we wanted to provide whichever answer we wish to support. Single examples typically mean very little other than being a good way to convince yourself of the action you already decided is right.