[keithhus]

Would appreciate guidance as to what if anything was incorrect with the bidding regarding a hand my partner and I played yesterday which went down by 3 (bottom). We lost H6 tricks.
I had 13 pts - S 5. H. 2. D. 4. C. 2 and opened S 1.
LHO over called H. 2
Partner doubled
I took this to be a negative double meaning partner had 6-10 pts with D and C
I rebid D. 3
Partner rebid NT. 3.
Partner had 8 pts S. 3. H. 2 (kx) D 4. C. 4

Partner advised that Double was a point count only in order to keep bidding open as could not bid NT1 and I had bid at the 3 level.
Question
1. Is it sensible to use negative doubles in this way? Other tables bid and made S. 2. Hence would it be better for partner to bid S. 2/pass and leave it to me to raise the bid.
2. I bid D. 3 because I think that the Double is forcing. Is this correct ?
3. If 1 above is correct, how do I differentiate with a take out double?

Appreciate any comments, not looking to blame but would like to understand for future.
Thank you

[neilkaz]

While it is difficult to see what happened without a hand diagram, one wonders why PD didn't raise to 2♠ with 3 card support assuming you were playing 5 card majors. Having made the poor negX, he then chose the overbid of 3NT and again hid his trump support.

I realize this isn't an ATB, but all the fault is your PD's.

Also forcing you to rebid at the 3 level if you have a minor fit by making a negX with a mundane 8 HCP is quite pushy.

So 1) PD was light for his negX 2) More importantly PD avoided showing you his ♠ support. PD's 2♠ bid should be automatic. It is super important to be able to bid ♠ over the opp's ♥. 3) PD's 3NT bid was simply nuts.

[billw55]

 neilkaz, on 2015-October-21, 11:35, said:

PD's 2♠ bid should be automatic.

Agree with everything Neil said, but this is point number 1. If playing 5 card majors, 2♠ is absolute.

If not playing 5 card majors (perhaps Acol) then the negative double is ok - somewhat pushy, but within discretion. But, that must be the last bid unless clearly forced. 3NT was very bad no matter what system you play.

[Stephen Tu]

BTW for posting, try to adhere to the following conventions which will make your post easier to read as it adheres to how it is usually done:
1. List people's distributional patterns in order S, H, D, C like: 5=2=4=2. The equals sign means specifically SHDC order which is the conventional order for posting. 5-4-2-2 is more generic not specifying specific suits.
2. List bids with order followed by rank, 1♠, 2♥, 3nt. Not like you did, with H. 2 instead of 2♥. Usually suit first posting is used for cards played rather than bids.

So to summarize your post, you opened 1♠ on a 5=2=4=2 minimum, auction went 1♠-(2♥)-dbl-(p);3♦-(p)-3nt, and your partner turned up with a 3=2=4=4 8 count.

- negative doubles should mostly deny a known major fit, which are much more important to find than minor fits (because you outbid opps at a lower level, requiring fewer tricks, and makes reaching 4M easier, which takes 10 tricks instead of 11). Partner should raise, which buys the contract lower and limits his hand at the same time, while double accomplishes neither.

Only possible exception to this is after partner opens 1 of a major and opps overcall in a minor, with invitational+ hands it's conceivable to seek potentially superior 4-4 fits in the other major over a 5-3 fit in the opened major.

- negative double should not be 6-10 after 1♠-(2♥). 6 is kind of light, good 8/9 is more appropriate minimum when forcing to the 3 level. 6 is OK at 1 level. Also, there should be no upper limit.

- double is not forcing (one is allowed to pass), but as essentially a takeout double it's almost forcing, because one can't afford to pass without quite a decent trump holding, especially since you are doubling the opponents into game. So partner needs to take this into account. He is minimum for his original bid, and your 3♦ is basically forced with all minimums with 4 diamonds, not a voluntary bid showing extra strength (as it would have had he passed), so 3nt is as noted completely ridiculous.

[keithhus]

Thsnk you all. I should have clarified, I play ACOL - 4 card majors. Please advise if that changes any comments.

[neilkaz]

 keithhus, on 2015-October-21, 12:53, said:

Thsnk you all. I should have clarified, I play ACOL - 4 card majors. Please advise if that changes any comments.

PD's negX is still light in terms of strength to force to the 3 level. I'd still bid 2♠ even playing 4cm, but will defer to those who play ACOL 4cm here.

Having ventured the negX PD should be happy to pass 3♦ as opener has shown nothing extra.

[keithhus]

 neilkaz, on 2015-October-21, 12:57, said:

PD's negX is still light in terms of strength to force to the 3 level. I'd still bid 2♠ even playing 4cm, but will defer to those who play ACOL 4cm here.

Having ventured the negX PD should be happy to pass 3♦ as opener has shown nothing extra.

Thank you
Would extra strength be 16+ pts ?
To show extra strength, would I jump?

[helene_t]

 keithhus, on 2015-October-22, 02:15, said:

To show extra strength, would I jump?

Normally yes, but here you would have to jump to 4♦ which is not really practical if 3NT is a possible contract.

So jump to 4♦ only with a very distributional hand, say 6-5 or 5-5 with the strength in the long suits.

With 16 points and no clear direction, bid 2NT with a stopper in their suit, and otherwise bid the opponents' suit.

[rmnka447]

The higher you force the auction with a negative double, then the more assets you need to make the double. The rationale is that as you raise the level of the possible contract, you need more assets to make the contract. At the 2 level, 20-21 total HCP would probably be enough to make. But at the 3 level, you need more like 23-24 total HCP to make with relatively nondescript hands.

Typically, if partner can respond at the 1 level, a mere 6 HCP would be OK to make a negative double especially when holding 4 cards in an unbid major. But if partner is forced to reply at the 2 level, then you need enough HCP to ensure you have about the 20-21 HCP needed to make at that level. Assuming partner has something like 12 HCP to open, then a good 8-9 HCPs minimum looks like enough to double. Likewise, as partner must reply at higher levels, you need that much more to double.

I'd be looking for at least 10+ HCP if I'm driving partner to the 3 level with a negative double. So a negative double with the hand your partner had is definitely pushy.

The exception is when responder holds a good suit that can't be directly bid over the overcall. At least in the US, holding something like ♠ xx ♥ Kx ♦ KQ10xxx ♣ xxx, you don't have enough to directly bid 3 ♦ over 1 ♠ - (2♥) - ? That would require something more like ♠ xx ♥ Ax ♦ KQ10xxx ♣ Kxx. But passing with the first example is onerous as a 3 level ♦ contract should have a good play opposite most openers. So you make a negative double and hope to bid your suit on the next round.

After aggressively making the double, partner should not make a further call over your 3 ♦ bid unless it promised extras. Partner does hold a stopper, but your total HCP when you hold a minimum hand isn't enough to make 3 NT. Partner should also be aware that the stopper can quickly be removed and your side will be in a position of having to immediately cash enough tricks off the top to make 3 NT or go down.

Not knowing ACOL, I'm wondering what a 2 ♠ rebid by your hand would show. If it has to show 6 ♠, then how can you find 5-3 ♠ fits in this and similar auctions?

[steve2005]

In Acol you still raise major suits on 3-card support, especially if another bid would show more values. So, sometimes you play in 4-3 fits that's the cost of playing Acol, live with it..
Ok, your partner made a pushy negative double on 8 pts, then they have a clear pass of 3♦, 3♠ is an overbid showing 11 pts but better than 3N which just has no hope.

[Zelandakh]

 neilkaz, on 2015-October-21, 12:57, said:

PD's negX is still light in terms of strength to force to the 3 level. I'd still bid 2♠ even playing 4cm, but will defer to those who play ACOL 4cm here.

It would probably have been correct to respond 2♠ in Acol even without the overcall (although many LOLs prefer 1NT) and not doing so after 2♥ was almost certainly a serious mistake. It is not at all uncommon to double with 3 spades and a stronger hand but a weak hand does best showing the support immediately.

[keithhus]

 rmnka447, on 2015-October-23, 13:19, said:

The higher you force the auction with a negative double, then the more assets you need to make the double. The rationale is that as you raise the level of the possible contract, you need more assets to make the contract. At the 2 level, 20-21 total HCP would probably be enough to make. But at the 3 level, you need more like 23-24 total HCP to make with relatively nondescript hands.

Typically, if partner can respond at the 1 level, a mere 6 HCP would be OK to make a negative double especially when holding 4 cards in an unbid major. But if partner is forced to reply at the 2 level, then you need enough HCP to ensure you have about the 20-21 HCP needed to make at that level. Assuming partner has something like 12 HCP to open, then a good 8-9 HCPs minimum looks like enough to double. Likewise, as partner must reply at higher levels, you need that much more to double.

I'd be looking for at least 10+ HCP if I'm driving partner to the 3 level with a negative double. So a negative double with the hand your partner had is definitely pushy.

The exception is when responder holds a good suit that can't be directly bid over the overcall. At least in the US, holding something like ♠ xx ♥ Kx ♦ KQ10xxx ♣ xxx, you don't have enough to directly bid 3 ♦ over 1 ♠ - (2♥) - ? That would require something more like ♠ xx ♥ Ax ♦ KQ10xxx ♣ Kxx. But passing with the first example is onerous as a 3 level ♦ contract should have a good play opposite most openers. So you make a negative double and hope to bid your suit on the next round.

After aggressively making the double, partner should not make a further call over your 3 ♦ bid unless it promised extras. Partner does hold a stopper, but your total HCP when you hold a minimum hand isn't enough to make 3 NT. Partner should also be aware that the stopper can quickly be removed and your side will be in a position of having to immediately cash enough tricks off the top to make 3 NT or go down.

Not knowing ACOL, I'm wondering what a 2 ♠ rebid by your hand would show. If it has to show 6 ♠, then how can you find 5-3 ♠ fits in this and similar auctions?

Thank you for your reply. Yes, I could have rebid S2 (extra length in ACOL- I.e. 5) but I took the double as negative , meaning my partner had the 2 unbid suits. However, partner advised that they use double when they are unable to bid NT1 (LHO had over called H2) and not to advise of specific holding. - I.e. have some points. Whilst I understand intent to keep bidding open, I felt it was a mis use of the negative double, hence my request for advice. I think I would prefer my partner to adhere to the negative double as I was taught and to either support my major suit (with 3) or to bid opponents suit as Helene has advised . However, I doubt this is going to happen; learning all the time! Thank you

[Zelandakh]

As I intimated above, the auction after 1♠ - (2♥) is too crowded for double to promise such a specific distribution as you would like it to. Your partner's choice was wrong on this occasion but you also need to think more flexibly when you encounter this sequence. Supporting the major with a weak hand is just fine but Responder also needs to be able to make a call with a similar shape and a stronger hand. What would that be if not double?

[wank]

your partner should still bid 2s, despite this potentially being a 43 fit.