BBO Discussion Forums: Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 1109 Pages +
  • « First
  • 526
  • 527
  • 528
  • 529
  • 530
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#10541 User is offline   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,228
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2018-July-17, 11:38

View Postbarmar, on 2018-July-17, 08:24, said:

Fake news! The boy was only 4 years old.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0054100/

It was written by the celebrated political cartoonist Jules Feiffer, and won the Oscar for Best Short Subject, Cartoon.


Thanks much. I had it in book form. There were, I think, four or maybe five stories Munro being one of them. Now I have looked at https://en.wikipedia...iki/Munro_(film) and they mention "Passionella and Other Stories". I think that's the book I had but it's too far back for me to say with confidence.

The late 1950s and early 1960s had several very good cartoonists/satirists. There was some local guy from the University of Minnesota I think, but I cannot recall any details.

Anyway, I thought Munro was great. The opening line is something like "This is about Munro, who is 4" and then it goes on to him getting his draft notice. You can almost imagine it as true.

Ken
0

#10542 User is offline   y66 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,496
  • Joined: 2006-February-24

Posted 2018-July-18, 08:49

From Jonathan Chait at NYMag:

Quote

Trump delivered a forced recantation on Tuesday, then quickly reversed. Photo: BRENDAN SMIALOWSKI/AFP/Getty Images
Vladimir Putin has cultivated a mix of overt and covert influence with a wide array of right-wing politicians throughout the West. In some respects, his alliance with Donald Trump fits the pattern perfectly. There is the openly shared ideology of white nationalism, with its belief that Christian Europe should ally with Russia against the common terrorist foe. There is the web of under-the-table financing connecting Putin to his allies and supporting their cause.

But in one crucial aspect, Putin’s American strategy has worked very differently than his political operations everywhere else. Whereas in most countries, Putin has created inroads with parties, in the United States he mostly cultivated just one person. That person happens to hold the most powerful office in the entire world, but he remains a solo actor. And the entire fallout from Trump’s bizarrely submissive meeting with the Russian president can be understood as the unspooling tension of a government whose leader stands totally apart from his party.

Well before Trump had even disembarked from his trip to Finland, Republican members of Congress and his own aides were registering their dismay at his performance. Trump defended his behavior in an interview with Sean Hannity, one of the few high-profile Republicans slavish enough to defend his open-channel collusion. As of Tuesday morning, he was still hoping to bring his party around. By afternoon, the pressure to climb down had grown too intense. John Kelly, Trump’s chief of staff, was, incredibly, telling Republican members of Congress to criticize the president. Trump’s own secretary of State and vice-president begged him to reverse himself.

And so on Tuesday afternoon, he delivered a forced recantation. Of sorts. Trump’s defense, that he accidentally said the opposite of what he meant to say, was difficult to believe under the best of circumstances. The context of his remarks, in which he dismissed allegations of Russian election interference, made it hard to believe he had intended to insinuate Russia was actually guilty.

Trump proceeded to erase whatever smidgeon of credit he might have gained by undermining his stage directions. After putatively affirming the conclusion of U.S. intelligence that Russia had hacked Democratic emails, he added, “Could have been other people also. There’s a lot of people out there.” A reporter caught him crossing off from his prepared text a line promising to bring “anyone involved in that meddling to justice.” Perhaps he realizes that the people involved in Russia’s election meddling include members of his own campaign and, in all probability, Trump himself. Or else he has despaired that his Samuel Gerard-like hunt will ever track down the elusive 400-pound man who really stole the files.

By Tuesday night, Trump was predictably back to his original line, or perhaps had gone even further. In an inflammatory interview with Tucker Carlson (who, along with Hannity, had never left Trump’s side) Trump made another astonishing announcement.

Here was Trump not only picking fights with allies, as he has been doing for months, but seeming to abandon the promise of collective self-defense that is the heart of the NATO pact. Without that ironclad pledge, the alliance would dissolve, to Russia’s delight.

Some analysts have tried to explain away these kinds of sentiments as just Trump’s relentlessly selfish worldview. And yet in the very same interview with Carlson, Trump expressed a sense of gratitude toward Russia for its sacrifices as an American ally in World War II:

There is no remotely consistent thread between abandoning America’s current allies and expressing fondness for its old ones. NATO came to America’s defense after al Qaeda attacked the United States on September 11, 2001. That was the only time NATO has ever invoked its collective defense charter. And yet Trump is resentful of this obligation to countries that still support the United States even as he expresses his sense of debt for Russian help 75 years ago.

While the NATO comment is the more newsworthy, the Russia comment is the more telling. Has Trump ever formulated his policy toward another country in terms of historical moral obligation by the United States?

Trump’s Russophilia is not completely unique within his party elite. Representative Dana Rohrabacher has long attended to Russia’s interests in an idiosyncratic fashion. Russia has also wooed allies in the gun rights lobby. Beyond that, Trump has almost no support for his pro-Russia views. He continues to place his political standing at risk by issuing endless Russia-friendly statements. There are limits to what one person, even the most powerful one in the world, can accomplish without a party behind him. Trump seems bound to press those limits.

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
0

#10543 User is offline   y66 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,496
  • Joined: 2006-February-24

Posted 2018-July-18, 12:34

From Trump and Russia: One Mystery, Three Theories: An agnostic's guide to our president’s strange conduct. by Ross Douthat at NYT:

Quote

My official pundit’s opinion on Donald Trump, Russian election interference, collusion, kompromat and impeachment is that I’m waiting for the Mueller investigation to finish before I have a strong opinion. This allows me to cultivate the agnostic’s smug superiority, but it also leaves me without a suitably en fuego take after something like the immediately infamous Trump-Putin news conference — not because the president’s behavior wasn’t predictably disgraceful, but because the nature and scale of the disgrace can’t be assessed without a certainty about Trump’s motives that’s somewhat out of reach.

So maybe this is a good time to step back and sketch out the three main ways to understand Trump’s relationship to Russia and Putin and the 2016 hacking of his Democratic rivals, the three major theories that make sense of our president’s strange conduct before and since. I’m not going to formally choose among them, but for people interested in betting I will offer odds for each.

Scenario 1: Trump Being Trump

In this theory of the case, you can explain all of Trump’s Russia-related behavior simply by finding him guilty of being the person we always knew him to be — vain, mendacious, self-serving, sleazy and absurdly stubborn, with a purely personalized understanding of allies and adversaries, a not-so-sneaking admiration for strongmen and the information filter of an old man who prefers his own reality to the discomforts of contrary information.

Thus Trump is friendly to Putin for the same reason that he praised the Chinese Politburo after Tiananmen Square and now praises Xi Jinping; the same reason that he likes the Saudi royals and buddies up to Recep Tayyip Erdogan; the same reason that after a brief period of bellicosity he’s ended up as a tacit apologist for Kim Jong-un. We have ample evidence, going back decades, that Trump simply likes authoritarian rulers, that he admires their supposed toughness and doesn’t give a fig about their cruelty, that he thinks they would make more reliable allies and partners for the United States than the ingrate democracies of Western Europe. And as Ben Domenech of The Federalist noted after the Helsinki performance, we also have ample evidence that he likes people who seem to like him and considers anyone who criticizes him an enemy: “Thus, the Euros are bastards, and Xi and Kim and Putin are not bad guys.”

If Trump seems to have a more intense affinity for Putin than for other autocrats, two further explanations may suffice. First, his history of doing business deals with Russians makes him particularly inclined to seek geopolitical deals with Russia — an inclination that’s essentially a shadier version of the affinity that the Bush family and other Arabists had with the Saudis and the Gulf States, cross-pollinated with the sleazy campaign-finance relationships that the Chinese cultivated with the Clinton White House.

At the same time, his vanity and amour propre, joined to his rage against his doubters, makes it impossible for Trump to admit that anyone else helped him win the White House — so he cannot bring himself to fully acknowledge and criticize Russian election meddling because to do so might call into question not only his legitimacy but his self-conception as a political grandmaster.

And what about the election-season contacts with suspicious Russian nationals and WikiLeaks, the Don Jr. meeting and the Roger Stone forays? In this theory they’re indicators that Trump, a shady guy surrounded by shady guys and professional morons, might well have colluded given the opportunity — but they don’t prove that any such opportunity presented itself. After all, neither the hacking nor the leaking of emails required his campaign’s cooperation, so there was no reason for the Russian side to advance beyond a deniable low-level meeting and WikiLeaks D.M.s, and thus no real opportunity for the Trump team to be a true accessory to the underlying crime.

This narrative does not exonerate Trump; indeed, it provides various grounds to condemn him. But those grounds are the same grounds that were obvious during the campaign: We watched him blow kisses to dictators then, complain about our allies then, promise a détente with Russia while exploiting the D.N.C. hacking then, double and triple down on falsehoods and bogus narratives then, cling to self-destructive feuds (the Khans, Alicia Machado) in the same way that he clings to public flattery for Putin … and after all this, he was still elected president. So be appalled when he behaves appallingly, but do not be surprised, do not confuse Trump being Trump with Trump being treasonous — and recognize that he isn’t leaving office until you beat him at the polls.

Overall it’s a theory that fits Trump’s personality extremely well, fits the available facts reasonably well, and doesn’t require any new revelations or heretofore-hidden conspiracies. So I continue to give it a … (consults extremely scientific methodology) … 65 percent chance of being the truth.

Scenario 2: Watergate With Russian Burglars

But in outlining the previous scenario I’ve conceded that people around Trump, including his own family members, did show a willingness to collude with dubious figures — and this concession alone means I can’t go along with Trump apologists and anti-anti-Trumpers who insist that collusion theories don’t have any evidence behind them. At the very least, they have the evidence of Don Jr.’s obvious enthusiasm and Stone’s conspicuous maneuvering. And then there is the reasonable point that if he were anyone else, much of Trump’s own behavior — the firing of James Comey, the rage against the investigations, the frequent lies and denials of the obvious, the unnecessary self-destruction — would look a lot like the behavior of a guilty man.

Because Trump is Trump, I think it’s more reasonable to see this behavior as of a piece with all his other irrational-seeming, self-destructive behavior on questions unrelated to l’affaire Russe. But there’s always the possibility that this characterological analysis is a form of overthinking, and that when the truth comes out we’ll look back and say that his guilt should have been obvious all along.

And what kind of guilt would it be? There are various possibilities, but the latest Mueller filing supplies one possible answer: In addition to the email leaks, we now know that the Russian hackers also accessed Democratic campaign analytics, a prize that (far more than the emails) would have been hard to fully weaponize if they weren’t shared directly with the Trump campaign.

Is there evidence of this weaponization? Not necessarily: A Twitter theory that the Trump team’s late spending shifts were suspiciously targeted and timed runs into the difficulty that 1) anyone could see by the fall that his electoral path ran through the Midwest and 2) the Democrats didn’t see his Wisconsin-Pennsylvania upsets coming, so why would their stolen analytics have helped Trump’s people target their way to victory?

But the Russians presumably hoped to do something with those analytics, people in Trump’s circle did show a willingness to communicate with them … and we know not only from Richard Nixon but also from Lyndon Johnson that the temptation to spy on your opponent’s campaign can be irresistible to politicians more experienced than Donald Trump.

So a Watergate-style endgame with a Russian twist is hardly a paranoiac’s fantasy: If the Trump campaign got stolen campaign data and Trump knew enough about it to inform his firing of Comey, that’s collusion and a case for impeachment wrapped into one scenario. And the odds that something like this is the truth I boldly place at … (calculates) … 25 percent.

Scenario 3: The Muscovite Candidate

That leaves 10 percent for the most dramatic theory, which is that any collusion wasn’t just something Trump’s team stumbled into during the campaign but something connected to a much longer-running Russian intelligence operation, and that Trump’s relationship to the Russian state is not just a personal or ideological affinity or a campaign-season alliance but a partnership forged through blackmail or bribery or both.

Most of that 10 percent covers the narrow version of this theory, in which Putin and Co. are blackmailing Trump with damaging financial information from his recent Russian dealings or with the mythical-or-is-it pee tape. A much smaller fraction of the fraction is left for the more baroque theory, elaborated (with caveats, but also way too much credulity) by Jonathan Chait in New York magazine recently, that Trump was actually compromised-cum-recruited by Russian intelligence all the way back in 1987, and that his whole worldview was somehow made in Moscow to help unmake the West.

There is a great deal of enthusiasm for this kind of theory, on social media especially, and on many days I think it’s embarrassing or risible — a birtherism of the center-left, an exculpatory fantasy from an establishment thrashing about to evade its own responsibility for the rise of populism, a “brown scare” about an omnicompetent Putin and a fascist international that mirrors similar paranoias on the right.

The first two narratives I’ve offered seem far more parsimonious, Trump seems like too brazen a sinner to be effectively blackmailed, and his worldview seems very palpably his own. Meanwhile, the Trump administration’s actual Russia policy, with its combination of the public bromance with Putin and more hawkish policies behind the scenes, would be a pretty a strange way for a Kremlin stooge to play his part.

But one of the vows I took after Trump's stunning political ascent was to refuse to be that surprised again, to refuse to simply laugh at scenarios that seem outlandish or unlikely — because, as they say, that kind of reflexive laughter is how you got Trump. And much as I’m inclined to put the Muscovite Candidate scenario at 1 percent or 0.1 percent, as I worked on this column the number kept creeping upward. After all, there’s got to be something in those tax returns … of course the Russians spy on foreign celebrities when they visit … the way he talks about Putin is, well, weirder than the way he talks about other foreign leaders …

Don’t fit me for that #Resistance shirt just yet; my money is still on the strange-but-not-that-crazy explanations for our president’s behavior. But in the age of Donald Trump, everyone should hedge their bets.

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
0

#10544 User is offline   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,228
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2018-July-18, 20:17

I see it more simply than do the pundits quoted above. Imagine one of those psychology things where you are given a word and you are to respond with the first word that comes to mind:
Love ---- --MarriageWar--------PeaceLife---------DeathClothes---HorseThat sort pf ting. Two weeks ago:Trump-----BelligerentNow, after the trip and the clarification that he inadvertently forgot a "not" in what he said:Trump-----Pathetic
Quoting Chait from above "And so on Tuesday afternoon, he delivered a forced recantation. Of sorts. Trump’s defense, that he accidentally said the opposite of what he meant to say, was difficult to believe under the best of circumstances. The context of his remarks, in which he dismissed allegations of Russian election interference, made it hard to believe he had intended to insinuate Russia was actually guilty."No. It is not "difficult to believe". It is absolutely impossible to believe. Of course we all occasionally mis-speak. But it is simply impossible to watch that news conference and think that Trump was intending to express skepticism of Putin's denial of interference. His entire performance, his demeanor, his other comments make it clear that he regards the denial as very acceptable.

So, going back to an earlier post, he goes to NATO and insults everyone, he goes to Helsinki and cozies up to Putin, He comes back and after broad criticism explains that he mis-spoke. He lies? That's not new. But this was pathetic. Some people might want to stand next to a belligerent bully when he is winning. Nobody wants to stand next to someone who looks foolish.
We are watching the unraveling of a presidency. This is a very dangerous time.

Ken
2

#10545 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,288
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2018-July-18, 23:28

View Postkenberg, on 2018-July-18, 20:17, said:

I see it more simply than do the pundits quoted above. Imagine one of those psychology things where you are given a word and you are to respond with the first word that comes to mind:
Love ---- --MarriageWar--------PeaceLife---------DeathClothes---HorseThat sort pf ting. Two weeks ago:Trump-----BelligerentNow, after the trip and the clarification that he inadvertently forgot a "not" in what he said:Trump-----Pathetic
Quoting Chait from above "And so on Tuesday afternoon, he delivered a forced recantation. Of sorts. Trump’s defense, that he accidentally said the opposite of what he meant to say, was difficult to believe under the best of circumstances. The context of his remarks, in which he dismissed allegations of Russian election interference, made it hard to believe he had intended to insinuate Russia was actually guilty."No. It is not "difficult to believe". It is absolutely impossible to believe. Of course we all occasionally mis-speak. But it is simply impossible to watch that news conference and think that Trump was intending to express skepticism of Putin's denial of interference. His entire performance, his demeanor, his other comments make it clear that he regards the denial as very acceptable.

So, going back to an earlier post, he goes to NATO and insults everyone, he goes to Helsinki and cozies up to Putin, He comes back and after broad criticism explains that he mis-spoke. He lies? That's not new. But this was pathetic. Some people might want to stand next to a belligerent bully when he is winning. Nobody wants to stand next to someone who looks foolish.
We are watching the unraveling of a presidency. This is a very dangerous time.


It appears from this NYT article tonight that Dennison has known from 2 weeks prior to his inauguration that Putin had personally ordered the attack on the American elections.

Quote

July 18, 2018

WASHINGTON — Two weeks before his inauguration, Donald J. Trump was shown highly classified intelligence indicating that President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia had personally ordered complex cyberattacks to sway the 2016 American election.

The evidence included texts and emails from Russian military officers and information gleaned from a top-secret source close to Mr. Putin, who had described to the C.I.A. how the Kremlin decided to execute its campaign of hacking and disinformation.

Mr. Trump sounded grudgingly convinced, according to several people who attended the intelligence briefing. But ever since, Mr. Trump has tried to cloud the very clear findings that he received on Jan. 6, 2017, which his own intelligence leaders have unanimously endorsed.


What this means is that for the past 1 1/2 years, every time Dennison denied or disputed Russian involvement he was doing so intentionally and in full knowledge that he was trying to mislead the public. It also means that last week in Helsinki, he ingratiated himself with the person whom he knows ordered the attack on American elections and American democracy.

Today, he is mulling over a proposal from Putin to turn over to Russia an ex-U.S. ambassador for questioning about a bogus charge of aiding embezzlement.

It is hard to overemphasize the danger we are in. Not only is Dennison unraveling, but so too his cover story and alibi.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
0

#10546 User is offline   y66 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,496
  • Joined: 2006-February-24

Posted 2018-July-19, 07:14

From Martin Wolf's review of Crashed: How a Decade of Financial Crises Changed the World by Adam Tooze:

Quote

“There is a striking similarity between the questions we ask about 1914 and 2008,” writes Adam Tooze. “How does a great moderation end? How do huge risks build up that are little understood and barely controllable? . . . How do the passions of popular politics shape elite decision-making? Is there any route to international and domestic order? Can we achieve perpetual stability and peace? Does law offer the answer? Or must we rely on the balance of terror and the judgment of technicians and generals?”

With these questions, Tooze, a distinguished British historian, now teaching at Columbia University, finishes his monumental narrative history of 10 years that have reshaped our world. These are, he adds, also questions “that haunt the great crises of modernity”.

Yet the fact that the book closes, rather than opens, with these questions indicates that it does not provide the answers. Instead, Crashed gives readers a detailed and superbly researched account of the origins and consequences of the wave of financial crises that emanated from the core of the global financial system from 2007. The prose is clear. The scholarship remarkable. Even people who have followed this story closely will learn a great deal.

As Tooze explains, the book examines “the struggle to contain the crisis in three interlocking zones of deep private financial integration: the transatlantic dollar-based financial system, the eurozone and the post-Soviet sphere of eastern Europe”. This implosion “entangled both public and private finances in a doom loop”. The failures of banks forced “scandalous government intervention to rescue private oligopolists”. The Federal Reserve even acted to provide liquidity to banks in other countries.

Such a huge crisis, Tooze points out, has inevitably deeply affected international affairs: relations between Germany and Greece, the UK and the eurozone, the US and the EU and the west and Russia were all affected. In all, he adds, the challenges were “mind-bogglingly technical and complex. They were vast in scale. They were fast moving. Between 2007 and 2012, the pressure was relentless.”

Tooze concludes this description of events with the judgment that “In its own terms, . . . the response patched together by the US Treasury and the Fed was remarkably successful.” Yet the success of these technocrats, first with support from the Democratic Congress at the end of the administration of George W Bush, and then under a Democratic president, brought the Democrats no political benefits.

The adamantine opposition of the Republican party to all efforts to deal sensibly with the aftermath of (or learn from) the crisis reaped the political rewards. Ultimately, their deliberate fomenting of rage led to the election in 2016 of Donald Trump, described here as an “erratic, narcissistic nationalist”.

This, then, is a complex story, financially, economically and also politically. Yet some things are now clear. The crisis marked the end of the dominant consensus in favour of economic and financial liberalisation. It shifted political energy towards populist extremes, particularly towards the xenophobic right. It weakened the legitimacy of European integration. The world of the established high-income countries fell into flux. Anything now seems possible.

If these are the book’s broad conclusions, what are some of the more detailed ones?

One is that this was a crisis of the north Atlantic region, which emanated from an irresponsible and poorly regulated financial sector. Tooze details how deeply engaged European banks were in the pre-crisis madness. “The central axis of world finance was not Asian-American, but Euro-American.”

This was not just a crisis of north Atlantic finance, but also of dollar-based finance. European banks had built up huge dollar liabilities and assets, with nearly all of those liabilities consisting of short-term market borrowing. When this lending froze, these foreign banks were in grave danger. It was the Federal Reserve, directly and via swap lines — dollar loans to other central banks, especially the European Central Bank and the Bank of England — that saved the day.

Furthermore, because the banking systems had become so huge and intertwined, this became, in the words of Ben Bernanke — Fed chairman throughout the worst days of the crisis and a noted academic expert — the “worst financial crisis in global history, including the Great Depression”. The fact that the people who had been running the system had so little notion of these risks inevitably destroyed their claim to competence and, for some, even probity.

Given the scale of the crisis, no alternative to a comprehensive state-backed rescue existed. And, given that this was a dollar-based financial system, it had to be led by the Americans. Moreover, because political pressure had already mobilised against fiscal policy action by as early as 2010, central banks, not elected representatives, had to take most of the needed action. But their policy actions, particularly “quantitative easing” — the buying of assets held by the private sector, especially government bonds — became noxious to those who viewed these actions as an unnatural distortion of markets, an unwarranted reduction in returns to savers, or an unjustified boost to the wealth of the already wealthy. Nevertheless, these actions were both appropriate and successful.

The scale and nature of the required response had significant political consequences. The public was enraged by the size of support for the banks and, even worse, by the payment of the bonuses apparently due to the bankers. This was made more infuriating by the fact that hundreds of millions of ordinary people suffered by losing their homes and jobs, or by being the victims of post-crisis fiscal austerity. Many were also enraged that so few senior individuals were charged. The trust that must exist in any democracy between elites and everybody else collapsed. With trust gone, conspiracy-mongers and political mountebanks had their day.

Perhaps most startlingly, conservative politicians in the US, the UK and Germany successfully reframed the crisis as the result of out-of-control fiscal policy rather than the product of an out-of-control financial sector. Thus, George Osborne, chancellor of the exchequer in the UK’s coalition government, shifted the blame for austerity on to alleged Labour profligacy. German politicians shifted the blame for the Greek mess from their banks on to Greek politicians. Transforming a financial crisis into a fiscal crisis confused cause with effect. Yet this political prestidigitation proved a brilliant coup. It diverted attention from the failure of the free-market finance they believed in to the costs of welfare states they disliked.

At the same time, the financial crisis really had left most countries permanently poorer than had been expected. People were in aggregate worse off. That misery did need to be shared out. The question always was: how.

The crisis also revealed the lack of preparedness of the eurozone. Tooze details the long and painful history of the crisis in the single currency and the intellectual, political, economic and institutional failings that made it unnecessarily drawn-out and deep.

Conservative politicians reframed the crisis not as the product of an out-of-control financial sector, but as the result of out-of-control fiscal policy

Resistance to necessary and just debt restructuring, particularly in Greece and Ireland, notably by the ECB, under Jean-Claude Trichet, is just one, albeit crucial, part of this story. Still more important was the failure to force the recapitalisation of the European banking system, in the way that the Americans did so successfully.

Yet another part of this story is the divergence between an increasingly exasperated US and a recalcitrant Germany over how to handle the crisis. Radoslaw Sikorski, Poland’s foreign minister, said in 2011, “I will probably be the first Polish foreign minister in history to say so, but here it is: I fear German power less than I am beginning to fear German inactivity. You have become Europe’s indispensable nation. You may not fail to lead.” Action did come, but it was always too little and too late.

Yet, with judgment and some luck — above all, the luck to have the pragmatic Angela Merkel as chancellor of Germany and the competent Mario Draghi as president of the ECB — the eurozone struggled through. But it was a close-run thing. Tooze explains, for example, that Draghi’s crucial “whatever it takes” remark in London in July 2012 was spontaneous, not planned. Above all, the tensions between domestic political accountability on the one hand, and a supra-national currency on the other, remain. The drama of the euro is most definitely not over.

The book also analyses the consequences for eastern Europe and Russia. It explains how the crisis led directly to the election of the Fidesz party in 2010 and so put Hungary on the path to Viktor Orban’s “illiberal democracy”. The impact of the shattering financial crisis transformed the relationship between the Russian government and the oligarchs. As the economy continued to struggle, it also promoted Russia’s dangerously nationalist turn.

Much more still is here: the extraordinary response of China to the shock of the crisis, with a stimulus programme amounting to 12.5 per cent of gross domestic product, probably the biggest such programme in peacetime ever; and the vulnerability of emerging economies to the tides of dollar-based finance, as money poured into the US, then out.

Also present are some huge political stories: the meddling of the EU in Ukraine and the consequent bitter clashes with Russia, the Brexit referendum and the rise of Trump. All these changes, too, reflect in part the political pressures created, or exacerbated, by the crisis. The ripples caused by this shock move onwards into the future.

Even a story this complete has omissions. Tooze focuses on the idea that the growth of the financial sector’s balance sheets was ultimately the cause of the crisis. He does not pay enough attention to why policymakers needed this to happen. The explanation, as I have argued in my own book, The Shifts and the Shocks, was the global savings glut and associated global macroeconomic imbalances. Huge external surpluses in some countries necessitated huge deficits in others. Central banks needed the credit growth if they were to hit the macroeoconomic targets.

Another underplayed question is whether the financial sector has been made sufficiently robust. It is arguable, alas, that balance sheets remain too large, that many of the underlying weaknesses of the financial sector survive, that pressures for deregulation are now growing and, not least, that some of the unconventional actions taken during the crisis by the Fed would now be impossible. That is worrying.

What, finally, are the biggest results? One comes from Tooze’s remark that “the optimistic dogma under which democracy and markets were seen as necessary complements — the mantra of the aftermath of the cold war — was dead. In its place the crisis had put a more realistic awareness of the potential tensions between the two.” This is surely right.

Yet another of these big results is that power and politics are back. US power dealt with the crisis. German power shaped the eurozone’s response. Rightwing politics reimagined a financial crisis as a fiscal one. A similar politics also shifted the emphasis from the dangers of economic insecurity and inequality to the threat from immigration. The crisis has, alas, awoken the sleeping ogres of fear and hatred.

How, if at all, will liberal democracy survive the age of Trump, Brexit, Putin and Xi? That is the biggest question raised by this transformative decade.

Short version:

The trust that must exist in any democracy between elites and everybody else collapsed.

With trust gone, conspiracy-mongers and political mountebanks had their day.

The optimistic dogma under which democracy and markets were seen as necessary complements — the mantra of the aftermath of the cold war — was dead. In its place the crisis had put a more realistic awareness of the potential tensions between the two.

It is arguable, alas, that balance sheets remain too large, that many of the underlying weaknesses of the financial sector survive, that pressures for deregulation are now growing and, not least, that some of the unconventional actions taken during the crisis by the Fed would now be impossible. That is worrying.

Will liberal democracy survive?
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
0

#10547 User is offline   jjbrr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,525
  • Joined: 2009-March-30
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2018-July-19, 08:47

View Postkenberg, on 2018-July-18, 20:17, said:

I see it more simply than do the pundits quoted above. Imagine one of those psychology things where you are given a word and you are to respond with the first word that comes to mind:
Love ---- --MarriageWar--------PeaceLife---------DeathClothes---HorseThat sort pf ting. Two weeks ago:Trump-----BelligerentNow, after the trip and the clarification that he inadvertently forgot a "not" in what he said:Trump-----Pathetic
Quoting Chait from above "And so on Tuesday afternoon, he delivered a forced recantation. Of sorts. Trump’s defense, that he accidentally said the opposite of what he meant to say, was difficult to believe under the best of circumstances. The context of his remarks, in which he dismissed allegations of Russian election interference, made it hard to believe he had intended to insinuate Russia was actually guilty."No. It is not "difficult to believe". It is absolutely impossible to believe. Of course we all occasionally mis-speak. But it is simply impossible to watch that news conference and think that Trump was intending to express skepticism of Putin's denial of interference. His entire performance, his demeanor, his other comments make it clear that he regards the denial as very acceptable.

So, going back to an earlier post, he goes to NATO and insults everyone, he goes to Helsinki and cozies up to Putin, He comes back and after broad criticism explains that he mis-spoke. He lies? That's not new. But this was pathetic. Some people might want to stand next to a belligerent bully when he is winning. Nobody wants to stand next to someone who looks foolish.
We are watching the unraveling of a presidency. This is a very dangerous time.


This pen is blue. Its ink is the color of the sky. Its hue has a wavelength of about 470nm. When I think about the pen, I'm reminded of clear oceans and Donald Duck's shirt - not the bow he wears, that's a completely different color, I mean the shirt itself.

...

I meant to say this pen is red.
OK
bed
0

#10548 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,288
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2018-July-19, 09:48

View Posty66, on 2018-July-19, 07:14, said:

From Martin Wolf's review of Crashed: How a Decade of Financial Crises Changed the World by Adam Tooze:


Short version:

The trust that must exist in any democracy between elites and everybody else collapsed.

With trust gone, conspiracy-mongers and political mountebanks had their day.

The optimistic dogma under which democracy and markets were seen as necessary complements — the mantra of the aftermath of the cold war — was dead. In its place the crisis had put a more realistic awareness of the potential tensions between the two.

It is arguable, alas, that balance sheets remain too large, that many of the underlying weaknesses of the financial sector survive, that pressures for deregulation are now growing and, not least, that some of the unconventional actions taken during the crisis by the Fed would now be impossible. That is worrying.

Will liberal democracy survive?


Here is the key takeaway - the propaganda that continues to work:

Quote

Transforming a financial crisis into a fiscal crisis confused cause with effect. Yet this political prestidigitation proved a brilliant coup. It diverted attention from the failure of the free-market finance they believed in to the costs of welfare states they disliked.


As long as the elites can continue to successfully sell to suckers their free-market snake oil god, there can be no positive change, only chaos built on rage.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
0

#10549 User is offline   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,228
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2018-July-19, 13:20

View Posty66, on 2018-July-19, 07:14, said:

From Martin Wolf's review of Crashed: How a Decade of Financial Crises Changed the World by Adam Tooze:


Short version:

The trust that must exist in any democracy between elites and everybody else collapsed.

With trust gone, conspiracy-mongers and political mountebanks had their day.

The optimistic dogma under which democracy and markets were seen as necessary complements — the mantra of the aftermath of the cold war — was dead. In its place the crisis had put a more realistic awareness of the potential tensions between the two.

It is arguable, alas, that balance sheets remain too large, that many of the underlying weaknesses of the financial sector survive, that pressures for deregulation are now growing and, not least, that some of the unconventional actions taken during the crisis by the Fed would now be impossible. That is worrying.

Will liberal democracy survive?


As I have siad, I learn a lot from reading the WC. I am completely serious about this.Just for starters, I cannot recall ever hearing of either Adam Tooze:or Martin Wolf. And there are many things that I am at best vague about.

" It is arguable, alas, that balance sheets remain too large," Does this mean that companies are carrying too much debt?

"Transforming a financial crisis into a fiscal crisis confused cause with effect." (Winston chose this one). Imagine yourself on a street corner in downtown Chicago. Or Los Angeles. Or St. Paul. You stop the first 100 people as they pass by, and you agree that you will give them $50 if they can coherently explain the difference between a financial crisis and a fiscal crisis. If you bring only $200 with you, I doubt that you will have either a financial crisis or a fiscal crisis running this experiment.

Many years ago I and some friends drove to a regional that was maybe a couple of hours away. At the time, Fermat's Last Theorem had recently been proved and this received a lot of coverage. My friends were interested. I think that by the end of the 2 hour trip I had given them some understanding of what the Theorem said and what it meant to prove a Theorem, maybe clearly enough that they understood why the proof necessarily had to be conceptual rather than calculational. My point being that while I am sure that Tooze and Wolf are very intelligent educated people, it does not follow that I can read what they say and follow it with confidence. And no, I did not give my friends a summary of the proof of FLT, I have never read the proof myself and I am sure it would take me a year (at least) to get the background knowledge to be able to read it.

I do like seeing material of this sort. I am not joking about that. But I will hold off on agreeing or disagreeing.
Ken
0

#10550 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,288
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2018-July-19, 14:39

View Postkenberg, on 2018-July-19, 13:20, said:

As I have siad, I learn a lot from reading the WC. I am completely serious about this.Just for starters, I cannot recall ever hearing of either Adam Tooze:or Martin Wolf. And there are many things that I am at best vague about.

" It is arguable, alas, that balance sheets remain too large," Does this mean that companies are carrying too much debt?

"Transforming a financial crisis into a fiscal crisis confused cause with effect." (Winston chose this one). Imagine yourself on a street corner in downtown Chicago. Or Los Angeles. Or St. Paul. You stop the first 100 people as they pass by, and you agree that you will give them $50 if they can coherently explain the difference between a financial crisis and a fiscal crisis. If you bring only $200 with you, I doubt that you will have either a financial crisis or a fiscal crisis running this experiment.

Many years ago I and some friends drove to a regional that was maybe a couple of hours away. At the time, Fermat's Last Theorem had recently been proved and this received a lot of coverage. My friends were interested. I think that by the end of the 2 hour trip I had given them some understanding of what the Theorem said and what it meant to prove a Theorem, maybe clearly enough that they understood why the proof necessarily had to be conceptual rather than calculational. My point being that while I am sure that Tooze and Wolf are very intelligent educated people, it does not follow that I can read what they say and follow it with confidence. And no, I did not give my friends a summary of the proof of FLT, I have never read the proof myself and I am sure it would take me a year (at least) to get the background knowledge to be able to read it.

I do like seeing material of this sort. I am not joking about that. But I will hold off on agreeing or disagreeing.


Ken,

Hope this aids understanding:

Quote

Fiscal policy can be used to stabilize the economy over the course of the business cycle. ... There is some overlap in meaning between the terms: financial, meaning (obviously) 'involving financial matters', is a subset of fiscal, which has the additional meaning of 'relating to government revenue and taxes'.


To be clear, the crisis of the Great Recession was a financial crisis - aided in its materialization by government policies over a number of years. It was not a creature of over-taxation and over burdensome regulation but its birth came as a result of a blinding chase for ROI coupled with regulatory changes and lack of enforcement of existing regulations, i.e., by allowing free market principles to operate unfettered.

Btw, Bill Clinton was a guilty as anyone on the right in embracing free market ideology in order to push his agenda.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
0

#10551 User is offline   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,228
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2018-July-19, 19:32

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-July-19, 14:39, said:

Ken,

Hope this aids understanding:



To be clear, the crisis of the Great Recession was a financial crisis - aided in its materialization by government policies over a number of years. It was not a creature of over-taxation and over burdensome regulation but its birth came as a result of a blinding chase for ROI coupled with regulatory changes and lack of enforcement of existing regulations, i.e., by allowing free market principles to operate unfettered.

Btw, Bill Clinton was a guilty as anyone on the right in embracing free market ideology in order to push his agenda.

Quote

Fiscal policy can be used to stabilize the economy over the course of the business cycle. ... There is some overlap in meaning between the terms: financial, meaning (obviously) 'involving financial matters', is a subset of fiscal, which has the additional meaning of 'relating to government revenue and taxes'.


Actually it does not clarify it. If, as it says, "fiscal" has additional meaning beyond the meaning attached to "financial", then it would seem that "fiscal" is a subset of "financial", meaning that fiscal policy is necessarily financial, but financial might or might not be fiscal. The quoted explanation of the terms has it the other way around. So I get to hold on to my 50 bucks as far as that explanation goes.

And I am not invoking some specialized mathematical meaning here. Ball games, game played with balls, are a subset of games. Friendly personal interactions are a subset of personal interactions. And financial matters involving government revenue and taxes are a subset of financial matters.

And then we still have to figure out what is meant by "Transforming a financial crisis into a fiscal crisis confused cause with effect." If we take the definition you quote, he is saying
"Transforming a crisis in financial matters into a crisis involving government revenue and taxes confused cause with effect." I don't understand that sentence well enough to agree or disagree. For starters, I am confused about "Transforming", I think he means "Recasting the discussion" but I am not sure. So is he saying "If we recast a discussion of financial matters as a discussion of government revenue and taxes we are confusing cause and effect"? What is he saying is a cause of what, what is the effect, how are they being confused? Well. I am confused. That much I can agree to.

My main point is this: We have an intelligent educated person with long experience in financial matters writing a review of a book written by another intelligent educated person with long experience in financial matters. From the writing I would guess he expects the reader to be an intelligent educated person with substantial experience in financial matters. It is no great surprise to me that I can't follow it all that well. That is intended as neither a criticism of them nor as a confession of my own stupidity, it's just a fact. The matter is complicated, I expect it would take me some time and some serious thought to even see what is being said.

Which reminds me of something a professor of philosophy used to insist on in my college days: "First we must understand what the author is saying. Then, and only then, we can discuss whether we agree with him." I haven't made it through the first part yet.
Ken
0

#10552 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,288
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2018-July-19, 19:58

View Postkenberg, on 2018-July-19, 19:32, said:

Actually it does not clarify it. If, as it says, "fiscal" has additional meaning beyond the meaning attached to "financial", then it would seem that "fiscal" is a subset of "financial", meaning that fiscal policy is necessarily financial, but financial might or might not be fiscal. The quoted explanation of the terms has it the other way around. So I get to hold on to my 50 bucks as far as that explanation goes.

And then we still have to figure out what is meant by "Transforming a financial crisis into a fiscal crisis confused cause with effect." If we take the definition you quote, he is saying
"Transforming a crisis in financial matters into a crisis involving government revenue and taxes confused cause with effect." I don't understand that sentence well enough to agree or disagree. For starters, I am confused about "Transforming", I think he means "Recasting the discussion" but I am not sure. So is he saying "If we recast a discussion of financial matters as a discussion of government revenue and taxes we are confusing cause and effect"? What is he saying is a cause of what, what is the effect, how are they being confused? Well. I am confused. That much I can agree to.

My main point is this: We have an intelligent educated person with long experience in financial matters writing a review of a book written by another intelligent educated person with long experience in financial matters. From the writing I would guess he expects the reader to be an intelligent educated person with substantial experience in financial matters. It is no great surprise to me that I can't follow it all that well. That is intended as neither a criticism of them nor as a confession of my own stupidity, it's just a fact. The matter is complicated, I expect it would take me some time and some serious thought to even see what is being said.

Which reminds me of something a professor of philosophy used to insist on in my college days: "First we must understand what the author is saying. Then, and only then, we can discuss whether we agree with him." I haven't made it through the first part yet.


I understand what you are saying. I do find it a little odd that you read this quote diametrically opposite to how I understand it. To me, fiscal is government + financial. Financial is only financial. The overlap only travels in one direction.

As to "transform", I understand the confusion - it is poorly worded. I think you are right. I understand the meaning to be that there has been some type of shenanigans to obfuscate the financial nature in order to protect the free market beliefs, thus laying the blame on fiscal policies - those of government + financial, when, it was only financial.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
0

#10553 User is offline   kenberg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,228
  • Joined: 2004-September-22
  • Location:Northern Maryland

Posted 2018-July-20, 05:32

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-July-19, 19:58, said:

I understand what you are saying. I do find it a little odd that you read this quote diametrically opposite to how I understand it. To me, fiscal is government + financial. Financial is only financial. The overlap only travels in one direction.

As to "transform", I understand the confusion - it is poorly worded. I think you are right. I understand the meaning to be that there has been some type of shenanigans to obfuscate the financial nature in order to protect the free market beliefs, thus laying the blame on fiscal policies - those of government + financial, when, it was only financial.


I agree with" fiscal is government + financial. Financial is only financial. The overlap only travels in one direction. ". My objection was that the quote then finds :financial" to be a subset of "fiscal'. It's the other way around. In the spirit of the times, perhaps the writer meant "not a subset". I saw this cartoon online where Kim is saying "I meant wouldn't denuclearize"

Mostly I do not understand what the review is saying. I try not to fuss about words if it is just for the fun of being fussy, but much of what is said in the review leaves me confused. If I wanted to criticize, and criticizing is a step further than just saying that I don't understand, it seems to me that we have one intellectual writing about the work of another intellectual and forgetting that some of us out there are not really up on the underlying assumptions and lingo in the matter under discussion. There is this old Judy Holliday movie Born Yesterday where William Holden is to help the unsophisticated (but definitely not dumb) Holliday learn about the world. He has her circle things in the newspaper that she does not understand. She circles just about everything, and when he declines to crawl into bed with her she threatens to circle him.
Ken
0

#10554 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,288
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2018-July-20, 11:08

The arrest of Maria Butina has placed a spotlight on the early days of Russia-gate due to her influence in the hiring of K.T. McFarland as Michael Flynn's second.

The NYT described the hurried actions by Dennison's team to appease the Russians after Obama expelled the Russia diplomats. The article claims this was because Dennison was afraid that continued emphasis on Russian interference - or pushback by Russia - would tarnish his win.

This seems hard to believe. Of course, anyone running for U.S. president has a degree of narcissism. Dennison, though, is too pragmatic to care too deeply about the appearance of his win as long as he won. He is and always has been about "the deal". What would the payoff be for Russian help in winning the presidency?

This group almost immediately began working on undoing the sanctions against Russia - in return for what? Flynn had been working on a multi-billion dollar deal concerning nuclear plants in the middle east.

To me, the only thing that really makes sense is that Dennison was so concerned about the Russian probe interfering with his presidency because it would either delay or ultimately cost him "the deal" - a payoff for removing sanctions.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
0

#10555 User is offline   y66 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,496
  • Joined: 2006-February-24

Posted 2018-July-21, 08:20

View Postkenberg, on 2018-July-20, 05:32, said:

I agree with" fiscal is government + financial. Financial is only financial. The overlap only travels in one direction. ". My objection was that the quote then finds :financial" to be a subset of "fiscal'. It's the other way around. In the spirit of the times, perhaps the writer meant "not a subset". I saw this cartoon online where Kim is saying "I meant wouldn't denuclearize"

Mostly I do not understand what the review is saying. I try not to fuss about words if it is just for the fun of being fussy, but much of what is said in the review leaves me confused. If I wanted to criticize, and criticizing is a step further than just saying that I don't understand, it seems to me that we have one intellectual writing about the work of another intellectual and forgetting that some of us out there are not really up on the underlying assumptions and lingo in the matter under discussion. There is this old Judy Holliday movie Born Yesterday where William Holden is to help the unsophisticated (but definitely not dumb) Holliday learn about the world. He has her circle things in the newspaper that she does not understand. She circles just about everything, and when he declines to crawl into bed with her she threatens to circle him.

The Judy Holliday character in Born Yesterday did not read the Financial Times or other newspapers that did not include a comics section but I'll bet she understood the concept of assets and liabilities and the importance of maintaining a reasonable balance and how not doing so can lead to trouble as it did for Japan in the 90s and for the U.S. and Europe in 2008 and, according to Wolf, is threatening to do again. Ditto for the idea that some of the changes we're seeing in our government have something to do with changes in prospects for making a decent income after taxes, getting a decent education, living in a decent neighborhood on a planet that isn't becoming a wasteland, access to decent health care and other stuff including getting laid all of which are affected more or less by prospects for stable economic growth and that a world full of ignorant people who think Trump will save them is a dangerous place even for not so dumb blondes.

Quote

"Billie Dawn: This country and its institutions belong to the people who inhibit it.

Paul Verrall: inHABit.

Billie Dawn: InHABit it.

Quote

"Harry Brock: How d'ya like that! He could've had a hundred grand. She could've had me. Both wind up with nothin'... Dumb chump!... Crazy broad!

Jim Devery: [raises a glass as a toast] To all the dumb chumps and all the crazy broads, past, present, and future, who thirst for knowledge and search for truth... who fight justice and civilize each other... and make it so tough for crooks like you...

[Harry stares at him angrily]

Jim Devery: ...AND me.

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
0

#10556 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,288
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2018-July-21, 09:59

Twelve-step programs use the phrase "ruthless self-honesty" as a necessary component of healing.

Then The Atlantic has this:

Quote

What I found was that Trump embodied his supporters’ most profound beliefs—combining an insistence that discriminatory policies were necessary with vehement denials that his policies would discriminate and absolute outrage that the question would even be asked.

t was not just Trump’s supporters who were in denial about what they were voting for, but Americans across the political spectrum, who, as had been the case with those who had backed Duke, searched desperately for any alternative explanation—outsourcing, anti-Washington anger, economic anxiety—to the one staring them in the face. The frequent postelection media expeditions to Trump country to see whether the fever has broken, or whether Trump’s most ardent supporters have changed their minds, are a direct outgrowth of this mistake. These supporters will not change their minds, because this is what they always wanted: a president who embodies the rage they feel toward those they hate and fear, while reassuring them that that rage is nothing to be ashamed of.


Delusion is never good.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
0

#10557 User is offline   y66 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,496
  • Joined: 2006-February-24

Posted 2018-July-24, 07:35

From Veterans Speak Out Against The Militarization Of Sports by Howard Bryant at WBUR:

Quote

While researching my book “The Heritage,” I was struck by the enormous effect the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks have had on sports — how they look, how they’re packaged and how they’re sold. Before 9/11, giant flags and flyovers were reserved for the Super Bowl. Today, they are commonplace. Even the players wear camouflage jerseys. The military is omnipresent. And it’s by design.

The public accepts this as supporting the troops, but one group of individuals — the veterans themselves — is more skeptical. One voice stood out: William Astore's.

"They bring out a humongous flag," he says. "Military jets fly overhead, sometimes it’s a B-2 stealth bomber, sometimes it’s fighter jets."

Bill Astore is a retired Air Force lieutenant colonel who writes about the increased militarization of sports — and its perils — on Bracing Views, his personal blog, as well as the website Tom Dispatch.

"I think, at first, there’s a sort of thrilling feeling," Astore says. "I’m like all the other fans: a big plane goes overhead — ‘Wow!’ That's kind of awe inspiring. But at the same time, to me, it’s not something that I see should be flying over a sports stadium before a baseball game or a football game. You know, these are weapons of death. They may be required, but they certainly shouldn't be celebrated and applauded."

Astore grew up in Brockton, Massachusetts, the bare-knuckle town of famed boxers Rocky Marciano and Marvelous Marvin Hagler. He’s an avid Red Sox fan, and when he watches sports, he sees the perpetual selling of war, and something very cynical: patriotism for sale, with troops as bait.

The MLB All-Star Game in Washington, D.C., this week was so awash in ceremony, it conjured thoughts of an old joke with a new twist: “I went to a military parade and a baseball game broke out.”

"I think our military has made a conscious decision, and that decision was, as much as possible, to work with strong forces within our society," Astore says. "I think our military made a choice to work with the sporting world — and vice versa. I think that's something that's in response to 9/11."

Before 9/11, an American flag the size of a football field was unheard of.

"What I remember from going to games is: I remember the national anthem, a conventional-sized American flag, and that’s all I remember," Astore says. "And I have to say that I thought that was enough.

"You know, after 9/11, there were so many people that I saw who broke out the flags and put them on their cars and had a spontaneous reaction to a feeling that we, as Americans, needed to come together. And that felt good."

In the years following 9/11, professional sports took a healing gesture and transformed it into a way to make money. In 2015, Republican Sens. John McCain and Jeff Flake released the report “Tackling Paid Patriotism,” which criticized the deceptive, taxpayer-funded contracts between the Pentagon and virtually every pro sports league. In 2012, the New York Army National Guard paid the Buffalo Bills $250,000 to conduct on-field re-enlistment ceremonies. In 2014, the Georgia National Guard paid the Atlanta Falcons $114,000 to sing the national anthem. In 2015, the Air Force paid NASCAR $1.5 million in part for veterans to shake hands with racing legend Richard Petty. Your tax dollars. At work.

"I hate to say it, but I wasn't completely surprised," Astore says. "But I was disgusted by it. Patriotic displays, they mean a lot more to me when they're spontaneous. But to learn that these had been paid for — that corporate teams, teams owned by billionaires, basically, were collecting money from the military. Paid for, obviously, by you and me, by the American taxpayer. Well, it was sad."

"Under the Bush-Cheney administration, we weren’t even able to see the caskets of dead soldiers," Astore says. "The cost of war — that very ugly face of war — was being kept from us.American flags are the ultimate Good Housekeeping seal. And thanking veterans for their service disconnects the public from what has been nearly two decades of war. The ballpark ceremony obscures the realities of war and, by focusing on soldiers, inoculates the government from antiwar criticism. Astore tells me it’s a form of emotional manipulation.

"And the only time we see it, sometimes, is when they bring out a wounded soldier, for example. And maybe he or she has lost two or three limbs, but they’re brought out into an NFL stadium or an MLB baseball game. And the impression that you get is, 'Everything’s OK, see?' But we don’t see this person struggling to get around at home. And maybe being depressed because they’ve suffered this horrible wound in war."

... Where do sports go from here? I asked one baseball executive, who told me his sport promotes the military not out of patriotism but out of fear — the fear of being called unpatriotic. Nearly 20 years after 9/11, Bill Astore believes these rituals have served their purpose.

"We sing 'God Bless America' during the seventh-inning stretch, because, well, that's what we do now," Astore says. "We have a huge flag and military flyovers because that's what we do. We celebrate a military person after the fourth inning because that's what we do. And we've come to expect it.

"I think we as Americans need to come together and recognize that all of this needs to be ratcheted back, that we need to return to a simpler time — when you played the national anthem, you respected our country and then you play ball. And you just enjoy the game the way it was meant to be enjoyed."

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
0

#10558 User is offline   johnu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,049
  • Joined: 2008-September-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2018-July-24, 12:27

Another ripped from the headlines story

Without evidence, Dennison claims Russia ‘will be pushing very hard for the Democrats’ in 2018 midterms

Some might find this hard to believe, but it makes perfect sense to me. In other news, Fox has officially joined the Deep State and appointed Bernie Sanders as President and CEO, is replacing lead propagandist Sean Hannity with Keith Olbermann, and will be simulcasting the rest of the MSNBC lineup after firing the rest of their on air so called talent. Finally, Dennison will be taking an extended leave from office to sharpen his golf game so he can challenge Kim Jong-un to a 100 billion dollar winner take all golf match.
0

#10559 User is offline   ldrews 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 880
  • Joined: 2014-February-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2018-July-24, 14:19

View Postjohnu, on 2018-July-24, 12:27, said:

Another ripped from the headlines story

Without evidence, Dennison claims Russia ‘will be pushing very hard for the Democrats’ in 2018 midterms

Some might find this hard to believe, but it makes perfect sense to me. In other news, Fox has officially joined the Deep State and appointed Bernie Sanders as President and CEO, is replacing lead propagandist Sean Hannity with Keith Olbermann, and will be simulcasting the rest of the MSNBC lineup after firing the rest of their on air so called talent. Finally, Dennison will be taking an extended leave from office to sharpen his golf game so he can challenge Kim Jong-un to a 100 billion dollar winner take all golf match.


Seems reasonable to me. As Democrats and the liberal/left have been asserting for some time that Russia was meddling and influencing the 2016 election in favor of Trump, now that Trump is President and enforcing tough sanctions on Russia, it is very credible that Russia would use the very same capabilities to oppose Trump and support the Democrats in the upcoming 2018 elections. Perhaps we need to take actions to ensure that no foreign parties are able to mess with our elections. One suggestion would be a national voter ID requirement to ensure that only valid US citizens are able to vote. This would prevent the Russians from materially interfering.
0

#10560 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,298
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2018-July-24, 15:14

View Postldrews, on 2018-July-24, 14:19, said:

Seems reasonable to me. As Democrats and the liberal/left have been asserting for some time that Russia was meddling and influencing the 2016 election in favor of Trump, now that Trump is President and enforcing tough sanctions on Russia, it is very credible that Russia would use the very same capabilities to oppose Trump and support the Democrats in the upcoming 2018 elections. Perhaps we need to take actions to ensure that no foreign parties are able to mess with our elections. One suggestion would be a national voter ID requirement to ensure that only valid US citizens are able to vote. This would prevent the Russians from materially interfering.


It would do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to prevent the Russians messing with your election. The Russians aren't voting, they're influencing legit voters.

Voter ID would disenfranchise a lot of less politically engaged lower socio-economic group people who would never realise they needed to do it, and as those people typically vote Democrat, it's a big Republican idea.
0

  • 1109 Pages +
  • « First
  • 526
  • 527
  • 528
  • 529
  • 530
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

122 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 122 guests, 0 anonymous users

  1. Google