[Winstonm]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-December-04, 10:15, said:

I can't help but think that many of the people writing about "Trump voters" are talking to me, even if they are not. I want to make one thing perfectly clear, in case I hadn't already done so.

I've gone on record many times, in another forum if not here, that I expect Trump to be a disaster. (He was my 17th choice in the primaries.) I hope that he will do good for the country, or that the country will do okay in spite of him, but I don't expect it. And yet I voted for him anyway.

Why? Because I was convinced (and still am) that the country will have done worse under Hillary. I'm sure that in four years when things have gone to hell in a hand basket people will come to me and say "See, you voted for him and look at what we got." And yet, I may have been 100% right; things may have been worse under Hillary and yet I'll be lumped in with all the "stupid, racist, uninformed, unable to fathom change" Trump voters. We will never know though. We don't get to see it both ways, but I saw the election as "heads I lose, tails I really lose."

A lot of your post was based on character. If that were the only reason for making the decision, I would have still voted for Trump. Yes, his character is awful, but IMO still better than Hillary's.

I don't think the issue is that Trump was your 17th choice but how and why you could not place Hillary 16th. Your posts have shown that right-wing propaganda, misinformation, obfuscation, and deception are a powerful force in our reality-tv culture.

Personally, I think you are smart enough to escape its effects if you so desire.

[Winstonm]

Elianna, on 2016-December-04, 00:39, said:

I may not be making myself clear: My point was that, like the video with President Obama talking to the young woman, that what the mayor said got twisted. Trying to allow residents to vote on local politics is a far cry from allowing them to vote in national elections. I would go so far and not call it "compromised" because I think that undocumented workers who are residents in a given town are contributing to the town by working hard, paying local taxes - mostly in the form of sales taxes - and contributing to the town's way of life. I think that allowing them to vote in local elections would make them better residents (more willing to do things for the good of the town) and I think that they would deserve it just as much as someone lucky enough to be born in the US who moves to that town.

So I was not saying the mayor encouraged illegal activity - he wanted to allow people to vote in local elections (make something legal) but that doesn't mean that he was encouraging people to vote WITHOUT it being made legal.

I disagree that your questions are the questions that should be asked. I would ask: How can people be such bad readers that they miss the word local when reading that article, and get so angry that they pass it along to others who either also can't read, or don't bother to read and just believe whatever they're told. And then how people use evidence of ONE mayor advocating letting undocumented RESIDENTS vote in LOCAL elections and use that as possible proof that 3 million undocumented workers in CA voted in NATIONAL elections when these two are completely unrelated. I think that the problem is not just believing everything one reads/is told, but critical reasoning. Both in the area of critiquing the reasoning of others (not just disbelieving them because blah), and also in inductive reasoning: If A-> B that doesn't prove some unrelated C.

I showed the link to say that it wasn't completely made up, but twisted and misunderstood (or misrepresented), not in support of that ludicrous claim.

Agreed.

[jonottawa]

Another hate crime hoax. Shameful!

S. Jersey man arrested in 'Pro-Trump', racist post-election vandalism in South Philly

[jonottawa]

Keith Ellison’s coronation as DNC Chair is over

What a shame. I was really hoping they were going to pick this guy.

"The Minnesota Democrat had won endorsements from Sens. Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and Chuck Schumer for the job and had emerged as the liberal favorite in a party that has become increasingly controlled by its progressive wing in recent years.

...

In 2010, Ellison gave a speech at a fundraiser hosted by a past president of the Muslim American Society. In it, he says he wants the “U.S. to be friends with Israel” but adds: “We can't allow another country to treat us like we're their ATM.” Then he said this:

The United States foreign policy in the Middle East is governed by what is good or bad through a country of 7 million people. A region of 350 million all turns on a country of 7 million. Does that make sense? Is that logic? Right? When the Americans who trace their roots back to those 350 million get involved, everything changes."

[y66]

Quote

Italy votes on Constitutional Reforms this weekend, which could simplify the country’s legislative process. Manulife Asset Management’s Head of EAFE and European Equities, David Hussey, considers whether the outcome matters to investors.

Quote

The media has billed the Italian referendum as the next big populist event following the Brexit referendum in the UK and the victory of Mr. Donald Trump in the US earlier this year. It is true that there is a populist element to the vote given that many people will be casting their ballot either for or against the establishment on Sunday. But that is a simplistic view of the referendum and, much like Italian politics, the vote this Sunday has many dimensions.

In considering the ways in which the referendum may lead to political and financial uncertainty in Italy, we have to look at three dimensions in particular: the content of the constitutional reform itself, the Italicum (a new electoral law) and the banking sector. more

[jonottawa]

Daughter of top EU official raped and murdered in Germany - Afghan migrant admits killing

Tragic!

[1eyedjack]

jonottawa, on 2016-December-04, 12:08, said:

Daughter of top EU official raped and murdered in Germany - Afghan migrant admits killing

Tragic!

Just curious, but what has this to do with U S Democracy being Trumped?

[diana_eva]

jonottawa, on 2016-December-04, 11:43, said:

Another hate crime hoax. Shameful!

S. Jersey man arrested in 'Pro-Trump', racist post-election vandalism in South Philly

I don't understand. What do you mean? I don't know how to fact check, just wondering what you mean when you say it's a hoax.

[jonottawa]

diana_eva, on 2016-December-04, 12:39, said:

I don't understand. What do you mean? I don't know how to fact check, just wondering what you mean when you say it's a hoax.

It's a hoax because someone spray-painted racist (specifically anti-black,) nazi-themed and pro-Trump messages on someone's car (and other property) in order to smear Trump supporters. The person who did that IS black.

It'd be like if some Jewish people sprayed a bunch of swastikas on a synagogue along with pro-Trump graffiti. It's designed to inflame public opinion against Trump and his supporters.

If you read the original story, you'll see the kind of press coverage this kind of behavior is meant to create.

Here's a website with a list of similar events. I do not vouch for the quality of the website. I'm sure someone will cry 'fake news' but most of the links are to mainstream publications from what I can see.

[PassedOut]

diana_eva, on 2016-December-04, 12:39, said:

I don't understand. What do you mean? I don't know how to fact check, just wondering what you mean when you say it's a hoax.

Jon means that the culprit is not white, so could not be a Trump supporter.

[hrothgar]

1eyedjack, on 2016-December-04, 12:31, said:

Just curious, but what has this to do with U S Democracy being Trumped?

Jon is simply demonstrating that he only cares about crimes that are committed by people of color against whites.
In a way, its a a great demonstration of what we're in for over the next year.

I could (obviously) spend the next 24 hours posting examples of crimes that did not involved Muslims or people of color, but that would not matter to Jon since he is race baiting and this doesn't fit his narrative.

[Kaitlyn S]

PassedOut, on 2016-December-04, 12:54, said:

Jon means that the culprit is not white, so could not be a Trump supporter.

I don't think he means that at all. He means that people are deliberately making Trump supporters look bad by flaming their own people and blaming it on Trump supporters.

We know that it has been done, that Hillary shills were sent to Trump events to incite violence to make Trump supporters look like a violent lot.

[hrothgar]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-December-04, 12:57, said:

We know that it has been done, that Hillary shills were sent to Trump events to incite violence to make Trump supporters look like a violent lot.

Not all of us "know" this to be true.
Please provide some documentation.

(And I hope for your sake its not the case that I heard about)

[jonottawa]

1eyedjack, on 2016-December-04, 12:31, said:

Just curious, but what has this to do with U S Democracy being Trumped?

I mainly posted it because I found it tragic. (Especially this bit: "Ms Ladenburger reportedly worked in her spare time helping out in refugee homes in Freiburg.") You're right, maybe it deserves its own thread. I don't like creating thread clutter, though.

Later edit: I should have posted it in RIP, thanks for the idea.

[PassedOut]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-December-04, 12:57, said:

PassedOut, on 2016-December-04, 12:54, said:

Jon means that the culprit is not white, so could not be a Trump supporter.

I don't think he means that at all. He means that people are deliberately making Trump supporters look bad by flaming their own people and blaming it on Trump supporters.

Are you sure? I reread the referenced article and saw no suggestion whatever that the culprit was anything other than a Trump supporter in action. What makes you think he was not?

[Kaitlyn S]

hrothgar, on 2016-December-04, 13:19, said:

Not all of this "know" this to be true.
Please provide some documentation.

(And I hope for your sake its not the case that I heard about)

That's funny, that's the one thing that I thought the left was willing to concede. When I get a chance, I'll look for it.

[hrothgar]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-December-04, 14:58, said:

That's funny, that's the one thing that I thought the left was willing to concede. When I get a chance, I'll look for it.

By the way Kaitlyn, I can't help but notice that you have a user ID set up on Bridgewinners but that you are blocked from posting because you haven't been able to provide any kind of verifiable ID.

If you look at your article on the Integrity of the Masterpoint, it is flagged "This comment has been made by a user that has not yet been verified."
http://bridgewinners...he-masterpoint/

Unlike the BBO Forums, BW has a nice little feature that requires users to verify their identity before they are allowed to post.
Its intended to cut down on the number of trolls...

The thought is that if people need to post under their real name and using their real identify, they'll take a bit more care with their posts and not just post random provocative ***** for kicks and giggles.

Just thought that you'd like to know...

[jonottawa]

I wish the harassment of Kaitlyn would stop. I've privately messaged one forum mod to TRY to get a handle on the personal attacks in here, but to no avail (even though that's the FIRST rule of the Water Cooler.)

Rain, on 2006-March-03, 20:48, said:

This is meant to be a place to engage in dialogue, share your views and perspectives on global events, anything that can't fit into the other forums. However, we'll still follow some basic rules:

1) No personal attacks. Insults are a No-No. You can have issues with someone else's opinion and attack that (in a civilised manner hopefully), but don't go after anyone personally.

Anyway, here's a good article:

Maybe Donald Trump knows exactly what he’s doing with these Cabinet picks

"With the announcement Thursday of Gen. James Mattis as his pick for secretary of defense, Trump continues to demonstrate that those early worries were way off base. In fact, Trump's Cabinet choices -- and some of his potential choices -- reflect a political savviness that many people haven't been willing to grant the president-elect."

[awm]

People on the right seem to think there is some vast liberal conspiracy to make Trump and his supporters look bad. Why would we bother? Trump does an ample job making himself look bad without any such conspiracy -- most of Clinton's negative ads this campaign were just playing back Trump's own awful statements about women, immigrants, soldiers, the disabled, etc.

As for individual liberals there is indeed some hostility. To try and explain this to the other side...

Say you're walking around your community and you see a brown skinned, heavily bearded man wearing a black hat with white lettering. The hat says "ISIS: Death to America!"

Does this man make you feel uncomfortable? Do you think he may be up to no good? Are you vaguely bothered by his choice of hat, even though we have (of course) free speech in this country? If you're the more confrontational sort, might you be tempted to say something nasty to this man? Or maybe just ask him how he can wear such a hat or support such an organization? If he runs a shop in town might you be tempted not to shop there?

These are the reactions that American minorities feel when they see a white man wearing a Trump hat. It's a statement that they want me and my family out of "their" country, that they blame us for things, that they want to "make America white again." Why do we feel that way? Because they are supporting a man who has been VERY EXPLICIT that Mexicans are rapists and murderers and we ought to build a wall to keep them out, and that when he says "Mexicans" he includes Americans of Mexican descent (like judge Curiel of Indiana). And he has hurled similar rhetoric at many other minorities. He had support from American Nazis and the KKK, and while he obviously cannot be responsible for every one of his supporters, he has gone ahead and appointed noted racists and anti-Semites to top positions in his government! So the support is not just a one-way thing here.

[mikeh]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-December-04, 12:57, said:

I don't think he means that at all. He means that people are deliberately making Trump supporters look bad by flaming their own people and blaming it on Trump supporters.

We know that it has been done, that Hillary shills were sent to Trump events to incite violence to make Trump supporters look like a violent lot.

Kaitlyn

Richard has challenged you on this notion. The videos were, irrc, done by the same criminal who put together the fraudulently edited Planned Parenthood videos and have been shown to be just as false.

On that one: https://www.bloomber...dal-may-be-over

As for O'Keefe, even Fox has reported his criminal record, that long predates the ACORN and PP frauds, yet I strongly suspect that you accept his lies as facts.

I keep thinking that surely just once....just once...you'd pause for one minute while typing your beliefs and ask....is this true? Can I check?

But no, so far you are batting 100%.

As a simple example of how this ignorance and laziness plays out...you have repeatedly said that you voted for what even you agree is a vile, dangerous, despicable excuse for a human being to be your President because, awful though he will be, he won't be as bad as HRC.

I challenge you to list the facts on which you base that value judgement. Note that I am not interested in arguing the value-based portion of that. Your view is as entitled to respect as mine, and more, since you are a US citizen and I am not.

However, I am also challenging you to google each of the facts that you set out.

You will absolutely find confirmation for all of these facts, but look at which sources say what. Are there sources that are neutral that confirm? The sites that support you...what are the 'facts' and the sources?

I doubt that you will do this because you are lazy, but I hope I am wrong.