[kenberg]

Winstonm, on 2020-November-19, 17:05, said:

At what point does this become attempted sedition and a felony with a penalty of 20 years?



[size="3"]

More details here.
There should be a push to have each Senator say whether they are ok with this or not ok with this. A simple question and a simple yes or no should be expected. On the record.
I hope the legal system can handle this but we also need clear answers from our elected officials on where they stand.
The answer should not be difficult for anyone with even a modest sense of responsibility.
But many will try to duck.
No ducking allowed.
The way to prevent ducking is to make it clear that not answering will be taken to mean that yes, they are ok with this.

[cherdano]

kenberg, on 2020-November-20, 08:01, said:

More details here.
There should be a push to have each Senator say whether they are ok with this or not ok with this. A simple question and a simple yes or no should be expected. On the record.
I hope the legal system can handle this but we also need clear answers from our elected officials on where they stand.
The answer should not be difficult for anyone with even a modest sense of responsibility.
But many will try to duck.
No ducking allowed.
The way to prevent ducking is to make it clear that not answering will be taken to mean that yes, they are ok with this.

Here are some answers:
Mitt Romney
Ben Sasse

Yes, two is very short of 53, but it is better than zero. I hope we can give Romney and Sasse credit for this. It does make a different what Republican elected officials say in this situation.

[y66]

kenberg, on 2020-November-20, 08:01, said:

More details here.
There should be a push to have each Senator say whether they are ok with this or not ok with this. A simple question and a simple yes or no should be expected. On the record.
I hope the legal system can handle this but we also need clear answers from our elected officials on where they stand.
The answer should not be difficult for anyone with even a modest sense of responsibility.
But many will try to duck.
No ducking allowed.
The way to prevent ducking is to make it clear that not answering will be taken to mean that yes, they are ok with this.

Good idea in principle but how to get a vote on the Senate floor?

You know the pressure to stop clowning around is approaching critical mass when even Peggy Noonan and the editorial board at the Murdoch-owned WSJ are calling Trump on his sh#t. Another week and even the trolls on this thread will be saying enough is enough.

[Winstonm]

Winstonm, on 2020-November-19, 17:05, said:

At what point does this become attempted sedition and a felony with a penalty of 20 years?

I bothered to find out the answer - criminal sedition requires actions by force. I doubt if by force of office has ever been tested by the courts.

[y66]

Jonathan Bernstein said:

I often write a fun — well, I find it fun — Thanksgiving column about all the stuff that political junkies enjoy about politics in the U.S. With things a lot less fun at the moment, I’ll risk being a little sappy. Here’s an early Thanksgiving column of appreciation to those who make democracy real.

I’ll start with the politicians. There are more than half a million elected officials in the U.S., from members of Congress to state legislatures to all sorts of local governments — cities, counties, school boards, various authorities and special districts and what have you. Just a blizzard of offices, and people to fill them. Sure, a lot of those folks don’t really consider themselves politicians, but that’s just fudging with definitions.

On top of the elected officials, there are lots of people serving on all sorts of government and quasi-government advisory boards or special committees or other bodies. Governing in the U.S., especially at the local level, is often very much “by the people” rather than by bureaucrats. Then there are those who write to their elected officials; who testify at various hearings and meetings; who get involved in interest groups and try to influence governments at various levels. All that is self-government too.

Up next? Elections, and those who get involved in them by doing more than just voting. Activists, large and small donors, campaign professionals, formal party officials and staff, people on the campaign side of organized interest groups, and more. Again, we’re talking huge numbers here, especially when looked at over time.

Somewhere between governing and elections is the direct action of protests, where even more citizens find ways to get involved — the last four years were especially notable for demonstrations and other peaceful political action.

And let’s not forget the “neutral” and the partisan press. Alas, local news has fallen on very hard times, and robust local democracy has suffered as a result. But this is generally not the fault of reporters and their editors, who (despite what the outgoing president says) are essential to making the republic work.

All of that, and more, makes for what can at its best be an incredibly rich, textured, participatory exercise in government by the people. Madisonian institutions can be extremely frustrating. So many veto points. So much seemingly unnecessary complexity. But the U.S. system also excels at creating initiation points, which (when they work well) make it far easier to get involved than in systems that are more streamlined and hierarchical.

Of course, over the history of the nation, all of this has rarely worked at its best, and often hasn’t worked nearly well enough. Many scholars tend to agree that the U.S. wasn’t much a democracy at all until 1965: It’s not self-government when large groups of people are excluded from public life. To me, knowing the history of how precarious various parts of democracy have been only increases my appreciation for whatever success we’ve had — and for the millions of patriots who have made it possible.

I guess the point is: Democracy only exists to the extent that citizens actually take part in it. The best a constitutional system can do is to provide space for politics. It can’t force people to get involved or, for that matter, prevent democracy from being eroded by those who would subvert it. And so, to those who continue to make self-government a reality in the U.S., I extend my deepest appreciation. Thank you.

Ditto for forum mates who have made self government a reality in the wc.

[y66]

Aaron Blake, Senior political reporter at WaPo said:

OMG. The affidavit Sidney Powell and others are hyping when they say many precincts in Michigan have more votes than actual voters is .... based on data from Minnesota.

Do Trump's lawyers know what they're doing?

[y66]

Neera Tanden, President, American Center for Progress, channeling kenberg at BBO WC, said:

Politics is about addition, not subtraction.

And a good strategy of addition is to cheer people who do the right thing, not attack them for doing it on their timeline instead of yours.

Welcome converts to your cause. Don't chase them away.

[Winstonm]

This Huffington Post headline sums up the sorry state of U.S. politics:

Quote

More GOP Senators Have COVID Than Have Acknowledged That Joe Biden Won

[kenberg]

y66, on 2020-November-20, 08:44, said:

Good idea in principle but how to get a vote on the Senate floor?

You know the pressure to stop clowning around is approaching critical mass when even Peggy Noonan and the editorial board at the Murdoch-owned WSJ are calling Trump on his sh#t. Another week and even the trolls on this thread will be saying enough is enough.

I would not expect a vote. And, anyway, it needs to go beyond just the Senate.
Journalists can play a big role here.

The point is this: There is no room for fence sitting regarding what Trump is now doing. It is not "politics as usual" or anything remotely like that. People bob, weave and duck. That happens. On occasion it is so gross that no amount of bobbing and weaving can keep a person free of it.

I am glad to hear about the WSJ, and it make sense. I can happily read the WSJ. I don't gag. One can be conservative. One can be business oriented. But also one can be a complete Trump Toady, and I would not expect that of the WSJ. We need to sort out who is who. And insist that they declare themselves Lindsey Graham has made hos choice. I am hoping others, many others, will make a different choice. But we must force a clear explicit choice.

[Zelandakh]

y66, on 2020-November-20, 10:09, said:

Ditto for forum mates who have made self government a reality in the wc.

Who do you see as the POTWC?

[y66]

Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger said:

Numbers don’t lie. As secretary of state, I believe the numbers that we have presented today are correct. The numbers reflect the verdict of the people.

Margaret Newkirk and Mark Niquette at Bloomberg said:

Republican Governor Brian Kemp lamented the discrepancies found by the audit, but said he would sign off on the results as required by state law. He noted that the move paves the way for any further legal challenges.

Because the margin is less than 0.5 percentage point, Trump has until Tuesday to request a recount. Absent a court order, any recount would only require counties to feed ballots through scanners again instead of the more time-consuming process of tallying them by hand.

The Trump campaign has not said if it will request such a count, but Thursday night said it intends “to pursue all legal options to ensure that all legal ballots are counted.”

[y66]

Zelandakh, on 2020-November-20, 16:06, said:

Who do you see as the POTWC?

Shubi's ghost.

[cherdano]

kenberg, on 2020-November-20, 08:01, said:

More details here.
There should be a push to have each Senator say whether they are ok with this or not ok with this. A simple question and a simple yes or no should be expected. On the record.

kenberg, on 2020-November-20, 14:23, said:

I would not expect a vote. And, anyway, it needs to go beyond just the Senate.
Journalists can play a big role here.

(...) But we must force a clear explicit choice.

The Washington Post is clearly reading Ken's WC posts, and tried to force this choice:

https://www.washingt...ebc9_story.html

Three Senators responded with statement critical of Trump. Romney, Sasse and Collins. The others did not respond, or referred to previous statement made before Trump started pressuring election officials to sabotage the vote count.

Three out of 53 might be all we will get, I am afraid.

[kenberg]

cherdano, on 2020-November-20, 19:48, said:

The Washington Post is clearly reading Ken's WC posts, and tried to force this choice:

https://www.washingt...ebc9_story.html

Three Senators responded with statement critical of Trump. Romney, Sasse and Collins. The others did not respond, or referred to previous statement made before Trump started pressuring election officials to sabotage the vote count.

Three out of 53 might be all we will get, I am afraid.

I have a nightly séance with Katherine Graham.

These guys Shirkey and Chatfield from Michigan, didn't ask to be front page news on WaPo but they now are. It's the old story, a cliché. As a child I saw The Emperor's New Clothes as a play put on by the students at Macalester College (and if it pleases the Mac admin to hear that I remember this 70 years later, well, I do). The point of course is that someone says "Hey wait. Look at the obvious." And then someone does. And then more do. Then many more. We can hope.


The person trying right now to steal an election is named Donald Trump..

[y66]

Matt Yglesias said:

Trump rolling out a last minute price control rule on prescription drugs because he’s mad at Pfizer for not leaking the vaccine news is really bizarre — but maybe good policy?

Trump unveils plan linking drug payments to cheaper overseas prices
Friday is also the last day that the Trump administration can release a rule that could be finalized in the 60 days before Joe Biden assumes office.

[Winstonm]

kenberg, on 2020-November-21, 06:28, said:

I have a nightly séance with Katherine Graham.


The person trying right now to steal an election is named Donald Trump..

Let's not sugarcoat it - Donald Trump is trying to destroy American democracy.

[kenberg]

Winstonm, on 2020-November-21, 08:17, said:

Let's not sugarcoat it - Donald Trump is trying to destroy American democracy.

Phrase it your own way if you like, but I prefer my way. "Destroying democracy" might well be correct, but it's a general phrase lacking in precision. "Stealing an election" is clear cut, it's in the present, it's here and now,. I am saying/hoping that people who have gone among with past Trump actions such as firing anyone who does not kiss his butt should now be able to see that his current actins are a clear-cut attempt to steal an election. Whatever agreements or disagreements they and I might have had in the past, they need to be put aside to address this very real, very obvious, assault that is front of our faces.

It might be possible, at least to themselves, to squirm out of acknowledging their enabling silence or support of past Trump actions. Not here, not now. The election is over, the votes are counted, in some cases re-counted, it's over. Anyone, regardless of political views, who is silent about or supportive of Trump's current actions, must be held responsible for what happens next. I am thinking we will get through this and even that those who speak up will be given credit for doing so. But it's a tough time, and we will see who does what.

[y66]

This is a plug for Matt Yglesias' new blog venture. Today's topic is

Quote

County level vote shift from 2016 to 2020, discuss

Yglesias has moved on from Vox which he co-founded with Ezra Klein 8 years ago. Klein is moving to the NY Times in January. Yglesias is still doing the Weeds podcast.

[Winstonm]

kenberg, on 2020-November-21, 09:39, said:

Phrase it your own way if you like, but I prefer my way. "Destroying democracy" might well be correct, but it's a general phrase lacking in precision. "Stealing an election" is clear cut, it's in the present, it's here and now,. I am saying/hoping that people who have gone among with past Trump actions such as firing anyone who does not kiss his butt should now be able to see that his current actins are a clear-cut attempt to steal an election. Whatever agreements or disagreements they and I might have had in the past, they need to be put aside to address this very real, very obvious, assault that is front of our faces.

It might be possible, at least to themselves, to squirm out of acknowledging their enabling silence or support of past Trump actions. Not here, not now. The election is over, the votes are counted, in some cases re-counted, it's over. Anyone, regardless of political views, who is silent about or supportive of Trump's current actions, must be held responsible for what happens next. I am thinking we will get through this and even that those who speak up will be given credit for doing so. But it's a tough time, and we will see who does what.

I see your point and I agree. It is most likely better to talk about specific actions than abstract ideas. Even more to the point, don't you think it is important to emphasize that what Trump is doing is to serve the best interests of only Trump - that regardless of what happened in the past it is critical going forward that we vote into office people - Democrat or Republican - who do not place their personal interests above those they serve?

How can that message be simplified?

[y66]

Winstonm, on 2020-November-21, 10:34, said:

I see your point and I agree. It is most likely better to talk about specific actions than abstract ideas. Even more to the point, don't you think it is important to emphasize that what Trump is doing is to serve the best interests of only Trump - that regardless of what happened in the past it is critical going forward that we vote into office people - Democrat of Republican - who do not place their personal interests above those they serve?

How can that message be simplified?

As in how to simplify "wear the damn mask"?