[virgosrock]

probably somewhere in there is my fault..... BUT
Surely after negative double GIBBO with 17 HCP can find 4C but NO. Let's pass and kill partner later.
and then the multiply ambiguous double. If I bid 5C or 5H it is 17-18 "points" and so I am screwed.

If BBO was spending its efforts fixing GIBBO instead of searching for "abusive" language and consequent censorship we may have gotten somewhere in 10+ years.
wtf!! I tried wtf and it didn't stimulate censorship. Voila!!

vrock

---

[pescetom]

virgosrock, on 2018-May-15, 08:33, said:

probably somewhere in there is my fault..... BUT
Surely after negative double GIBBO with 17 HCP can find 4C but NO. Let's pass and kill partner later.
and then the multiply ambiguous double. If I bid 5C or 5H it is 17-18 "points" and so I am screwed.

I don't see why the double leaves you screwed, whatever you choose should be ok.
But I do share your bewilderment about that Pass instead of 4♣.
It's interesting that the description of your bid says "negative double" but then only mentions ♥ and total points, not ♣.

[virgosrock]

pescetom, on 2018-May-15, 09:25, said:

I don't see why the double leaves you screwed, whatever you choose should be ok.
But I do share your bewilderment about that Pass instead of 4♣.
It's interesting that the description of your bid says "negative double" but then only mentions ♥ and total points, not ♣.

The problem is "whatever I choose" shows 17-18. It might bid 7C or 7H because it has 17.
I think the negative double shows only hearts in this sequence. Nothing about clubs. Though there is a strong negative inference I have clubs as well. Which makes the pass over 3S even more bewildering.

vrock

[TylerE]

GIB does not make or leave in penalty doubles. The sooner you accept this fact, the happier you'll be.

[Stephen Tu]

At what point does bidding 5c show 17+?

I tested at bidding table, if you do it over partner's final double it only shows 7-12, what your initial neg double showed so you should be OK.

Maybe if you bid it immediately after 4S it shows that much. Just wait for your partner to show extra values by doubling and you should be OK. Bidding freely opposite a min maybe ought to be pretty strong, maybe not 17+ strong but not a 3 count either. If partner doesn't have enough to double 4s you might get murdered at the 5 level anyway so don't overbid your hand. It's very weird for negative doubler to come in at the 5 level next in new suit because normally a hand which justifies such action would have started 2 new suit to begin with, not a common sequence, so to me it's not surprising that it's not well defined.

Negative double does not show clubs at all, you can have just hearts and negative free bid type hand, or balanced, or some hands with diamond fit. Opener at 2nd turn doesn't have a good call because double of 3d is ambiguous, does it show this type of hand, good hand no clear direction, or does it show long good diamonds? Not clearly a standard here, GIB thinks it emphasizes diamonds. It's OK to pass IMO, 3d is forcing and it will get another chance to show extras by doubling 3s/4s, which it did. Then all you have to do is try 5c.

[virgosrock]

Stephen Tu, on 2018-May-15, 11:26, said:

At what point does bidding 5c show 17+?

I tested at bidding table, if you do it over partner's final double it only shows 7-12, what your initial neg double showed so you should be OK.

Maybe if you bid it immediately after 4S it shows that much. Just wait for your partner to show extra values by doubling and you should be OK. Bidding freely opposite a min maybe ought to be pretty strong, maybe not 17+ strong but not a 3 count either. If partner doesn't have enough to double 4s you might get murdered at the 5 level anyway so don't overbid your hand.

I recall BOTH 5c and 5h were 17-18 "points" after GIBBO's final double which is why I passed. Were you using your PC bot?

thanks
anil

[Stephen Tu]

No, this is on BBO web interface practice table. I verified, if you bid over 4s immediately it's the 17+, if you bid only after partner doubles back in it was just 7+.

[steve2005]

TylerE, on 2018-May-15, 11:12, said:

GIB does not make or leave in penalty doubles. The sooner you accept this fact, the happier you'll be.

That isn't true. Gibs, bids often say penalty double. Certainly, it is usually very hard to determine if Gib has a penalty or just matched some bidding parameters that have nothing to do with setting the contract.
Also, hard to do a double without knowing Gib will pull.

Balancing, also is close to impossible with Gib, which I have more of a beef with.
Even with human partners there is often disagreement of making and leaving in penalty double. However Gib carries this to the highest level of confusion.

[virgosrock]

Stephen Tu, on 2018-May-15, 11:36, said:

No, this is on BBO web interface practice table. I verified, if you bid over 4s immediately it's the 17+, if you bid only after partner doubles back in it was just 7+.

Starting here
http://www.bridgebas...p?cb=7Fu61BiqKJ
where do you click next? practice tables do not get me to a point where i can enter cards.
am on win 10 PC and firefox.

vrock

[Stephen Tu]

You just go to a practice bidding table, have host control the opps. You don't need to bother to enter cards if you just want to check what the bids mean (though of course the final result will look like nonsense since the cards will be random). Just fix a dealer position and force bids for everyone (you unseat yourself and switch between N/S), then after you force partner's last call before the decision point in question, swap seats and seat a robot as partner. Then at your next turn you will be able to hover over all the bids and see what the options are.

If you want to force a hand for a robot to see what they will choose, then use the advanced dealing options and the predeal dealer function.
predeal north S9,HAK5,
and so forth. You can wait to seat them until very end if you want to force a different beginning of the auction from what robot would choose.

[TylerE]

steve2005, on 2018-May-15, 12:29, said:

That isn't true. Gibs, bids often say penalty double.

What it says and what it means are... not the same thing. GIB does make penalty doubles, and any doubles you make that the CC says are penalty will get pulled to some hopeless spot 99% of the time.

[virgosrock]

Stephen Tu, on 2018-May-15, 13:38, said:

You just go to a practice bidding table, have host control the opps. You don't need to bother to enter cards if you just want to check what the bids mean (though of course the final result will look like nonsense since the cards will be random). Just fix a dealer position and force bids for everyone (you unseat yourself and switch between N/S), then after you force partner's last call before the decision point in question, swap seats and seat a robot as partner. Then at your next turn you will be able to hover over all the bids and see what the options are.

If you want to force a hand for a robot to see what they will choose, then use the advanced dealing options and the predeal dealer function.
predeal north S9,HAK5,
and so forth. You can wait to seat them until very end if you want to force a different beginning of the auction from what robot would choose.

Stephen, when I reach "deal Source" I get hand types and 2 columns. How do I populate the columns for NESW

thanks
vrock

[Stephen Tu]

If I am just testing the bots for one hand (not actually trying to practice bidding, with my regular partners), I am not at all trying to have people's hands match what they choose to bid. Since I am just investigating options, and have total control over what they choose, I can make someone open 1s or whatever even though they have say a void spade with a yarb.

So I just set the dealer so either an opp deal or we deal as appropriate on the general tab, then force the auction to my liking ("controlled by host" under table/opponent's bidding, DO NOT seat robots anywhere until very end where you seat robot as partner after you have forced the last bid he makes before the decision point you are investigating).

At most, I use the advanced tab only, select "use this input for the dealer program", and use a single line:
predeal north SAQ,H5432,D8432,CKQ2
or some such to set a single hand for partner, if I am testing what a bot chooses at a particular juncture with a particular hand. Until I get to the decision point I force bids for all the other hands, which will be of course nonsense compared to what they really hold which will be random combo of the other cards. Then I seat bot, have his RHO opp take last call, then see what the bot actually chooses.

[helene_t]

pescetom, on 2018-May-15, 09:25, said:

I don't see why the double leaves you screwed, whatever you choose should be ok.
But I do share your bewilderment about that Pass instead of 4♣.
It's interesting that the description of your bid says "negative double" but then only mentions ♥ and total points, not ♣.

The standard meaning of the negative double is 4+ hearts. If 5+ hearts it will be too weak to bid 2♥ directly. It doesn't show clubs.

East's bidding is understandable. It would be nice if it could double 3♦ but unfortunately this shows better diamonds in the GIB system.

4♣ is possible but presumably it needs five clubs for that. 3♠ might show this hand but it probably doesn't in the GIB system.

Maybe W should pull the final double but it's not easy. 4NT as choice-of-strain would come in handy but probably GIB wouldn't take 4NT that way.

So you're screwed. Hole in the system.

[virgosrock]

helene_t, on 2018-May-16, 16:07, said:

The standard meaning of the negative double is 4+ hearts. If 5+ hearts it will be too weak to bid 2♥ directly. It doesn't show clubs.

East's bidding is understandable. It would be nice if it could double 3♦ but unfortunately this shows better diamonds in the GIB system.

4♣ is possible but presumably it needs five clubs for that. 3♠ might show this hand but it probably doesn't in the GIB system.

Maybe W should pull the final double but it's not easy. 4NT as choice-of-strain would come in handy but probably GIB wouldn't take 4NT that way.

So you're screwed. Hole in the system.

Yes Abbess, I am screwed. Surprised "screwed" is allowed by the censors LOL.
I am trying to get to the bottom of why I thought 5C or 5H showed 17-18 as I remember but Stephen Tu is not seeing it when he enters hand in GIBBO website.

vrock