[BillHiggin]

Playing with irregular but reliable advanced partner, how would you expect the continuations following a invite or better cue bid raise of an overcall to be interpreted?
My thinking (and certainly looking for other views) would be something like:
Intervenor rebids suit at lowest level to say "glad you have some nice cards, maybe we can make this"
Any other rebid by intervenor indicates game interest.
If advancer returns to the agreed suit at lowest level at next opportunity he is saying "more invite than plus, we might want to stop here"
Any other rebid by advancer shows game values. Bids by advancer that commit to game other than actually bidding game suggest slam interest.

Sample: (1♣) 1♠ (P) 2♣; (P) 2♦ (P) 2♥
I believe the 2♥ call sets a game force.
(pet peeve - the forum editor is only offering me these cursed 4 color suit symbols - which seriously impedes my ability to read my own post! Bah! )
There is certainly a serious possibility that I am in some way confused or simply wrong.

[kuhchung]

looks right to me

[mikeh]

I think that having advancer's change of suit be a gf is too restrictive. In your example of (1♣) 1♠ (P) 2♣ (P) 2♦ (P) 2♥

I think that both 2♦ and 2♥ should be exploratory for game purposes. Should either have slam ambitions, then the auction should always develop in a way that permits that to be shown later.

[kenberg]

I will leave this since I wrote it but my mind was on a different auction.

Instead of
Sample: (1♣) 1♠ (P) 2♣; (P) 2♦ (P) 2♥
I was thinking of
(1♣) 1♠ (P) 2♣; (P) -2♥

So yes, 2H, in the sample, is some sort of forcing bid. I need to think about this. But not now. For example, could this be a good hand, modest spades such as Qx, a good but not self-sufficient heart suit?

For example, if over 1S advancer bids 3H I take this as saying we are either playing this in hearts or playing this in NT, or, if (but only if) overcaller has exceptional spades, in spades. Going through the cue bid of 2C and then bidding 2H is also strong but less enamored with the heart suit than a direct 3H.?


I agree with Mike that the 2H bid should not be a gf. Maybe for different reasons, I don't know. might well overcall 1S holding five spades and four hearts. After the cue bid, I want to be able to show my hearts. There is a fine chance that if partner has hearts, which he might, then we belong in game on our double fit. If partner does not hold four hearts, we may not belong in game. Translation:
1S overcall: I have spades and a decent hand
2C I have values and either I have spades or I have a very good hand.
2H: I also have four hearts.


Now whether or not a raise of 2H to 3H should be gf is another question. If fourth hand had the values for a cue bid without knowing of the heart fit, it seems reasonable that they should be in game after the heart fit is found.

Implicit in this is my belief that 2H is natural. I suppose it is possible that overcaller holds a hand where he just wants to make a cue bid but I can't recall it happening, If my values are modest I return to spades. If my values are better, it is likely that I have a 3S bid or a 2NT bid or some natural second suit bid.

I guess one could agree that after 2H (not a gf) a raise to 3H could be forcing as in "If you really mean that you have heart we can play in 4H, if not then tell me where we should play". I have this agreement with no one but I can imagine it. If after 1S-2C-2H-3H they do not have an 8 card fit, this can only be because overcaller has extras. He woould not cue 2H if he held neither four hearts nor extra values. So now they are in 3H where they do not belong, but they are going to game on adequate values, probably in spades, maybe in NT.

So I think that could work, I just have never, before now, discussed it with anyone.

[mikeh]

kenberg, on 2015-July-27, 17:28, said:

I agree with Mike that the 2H bid should not be a gf. Maybe for different reasons, I don't know. might well overcall 1S holding five spades and four hearts. After the cue bid, I want to be able to show my hearts. There is a fine chance that if partner has hearts, which he might, then we belong in game on our double fit. If partner does not hold four hearts, we may not belong in game. Translation:
1S overcall: I have spades and a decent hand
2C I have values and either I have spades or I have a very good hand.
2H: I also have four hearts.

<snipped>

Hi Ken

I don't think 2♥ should be an offer to play in hearts, since overcaller, having bid 2♦ in the example sequence will, for practical purposes, never hold 4 cards in the suit. I think that everyone would bid 2♥, not 2♦, with 5=4=4=0, assuming they didn't start with double. Ok, with xxxx in hearts and chunky diamonds probably not, but that is a vanishingly improbable layout, especially when the opps haven't competed in clubs and advancer has at least 7 major suit cards (assuming that 2♥ shows 4+).

I would suggest that 2♥ shows heart values, and that having length of 4 or more is possible, even probable, but not promised. It's a game try, allowing a partner with, say, Jxx,in the suit to have comfort that they ain't cashing the book tricks in that suit right away, while also conveying doubt about where we should play. IOW, these bids in suits partner doesn't rate to have, when we have already found a fit, are value showing probes about level rather than attempts to find another fit. Note that this is quite different from advancer's use of 2♥ over 2♣...now this could well be a suit, but need not be.

[SteveMoe]

---

There are two common approaches on the 2♣ bid -
1) INV+ in ♠
2) INV+ in ♠ or GF in own suit.

East's 2♦ call shows more than a minimum overcall but might be ambiguous as to level.
Regardless whether approach 1) or 2) are in play, 2♥ is a GF - what differs is what 2♥ shows.

Where the cue bid guarantees ♠ support, 2♥ is an advance control bid. Intervenor will bid ♥ in preference to ♦ when holding 5=4=4=0. 2♦ effectively denies 4 ♥ cards.
Where the cue implies support, 2♥ is either a GF Natural or a control bid for ♠. Time will tell.

[kenberg]

mikeh, on 2015-July-27, 18:01, said:

Hi Ken

I don't think 2♥ should be an offer to play in hearts, since overcaller, having bid 2♦ in the example sequence will, for practical purposes, never hold 4 cards in the suit.

Oops, I spoke without thinking.I fixed up the post a bit. I was on the wrong auction.

[kenberg]

BillHiggin, on 2015-July-27, 14:52, said:

Playing with irregular but reliable advanced partner, how would you expect the continuations following a invite or better cue bid raise of an overcall to be interpreted?

Maybe we need to start here.

The thread title says invit or better but does not specify a fit. Here you seem to. I am not just fussing about words. How many spades does the cue bid promise? This is tied up with related questions;

Is (1♣) 1♠ (P) - 2♥ forcing? If I am dealt a 12 count with five good hearts I would like to be able to bid 2H whether or not i fit spades. I fpartner has a lead directing spade overcall, modest strength, and does not fit hearts all that well, we may be high enough.

Also Is (1♣) 1♠ (P) - 3♥ could be played as fit showing. It also could be played as a self-sufficient heart suit.

These things matter because (1♣) 1♠ (P) 2♣; (P) 2♦ (P) 2♥
presumably shows a hand that cannot be bid more simply in other ways.


I think that the 2C cue is very risky unles the cuebidder has at least something like Qx in spades. But insisting that he must have three spades. can make bidding difficult when fourth hand has good values but only two spades.

Smewhere in some book there is a chapter called "The many faces of the cue bid". Maybe I need to read it.



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